by Elsewhere 162 Replies latest jw friends
My questions really don't have anything to do with whether the Bible is literal or not... it all comes down to interpretation, namely: In the overall story, who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy"?
Everything I read in the bible keeps telling me that the "God" character in the story is a brutal dictator who wants slaves who will blindly obey him and who will torture and kill anyone who defies him. Satan, on the other had, seems to want to grant everyone freedom.
LT,
"Who said it was a test?
That would be contrary to scripture (James 1:13)."
Good point.I was aware of that scripture, hence my confusion. But that still doesn't really answer why God put the trees in the garden in the first place (Gen.3:9), told Adam and Eve to stay away from them,then when Eve was decieved by the snake,greatly increased Eve's pain in childbirth, caused her to have problems with her hubby, and kicked her and Adam out of the garden so they couldn't eat from the other tree.To me, the "I" statement indicates that he did this directly and deliberately (for whatever reason he had), not that it was simply a consequence of the actions they chose to take.
I could understand it if the trees were just there in the first place. But Genesis specifically mentions that those trees were put in the Garden by God, and they are mentioned by their names, not just as "trees".
I guess I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of being a mother. I wouldn't expect young children to stay away from something that would cause their death, I would remove the death dealing thing from their area, or remove them from the death dealing thing BEFORE they got themselves in trouble with it. Or not bring it into the area where they were in the first place, if it was within my control.
"Under the Christian framework "grace" would surely be necessary to allow "free will" to work the other way too, wouldn't it?"
But why do humans need grace to begin with, if the whole Garden thing was not a test, and they are created in God's image? Aren't people fine the way they are, or is it a spirtual evolutionary kinda thing? Can you give me some sort of example of what you mean by grace? It's been a long time since I've dealt with the subject of grace, though I did learn a bit about it as a child before I joined the JWs. In my background, grace was equated with forgiveness and mercy, which needed to be applied because humans inherited sin from Adam and Eve.
"Try substituting "Christ" for "tree of life", in the Genesis account, and see if that does anything for you, regarding the concept of grace over works."
Ahh, "Christ" and the "tree of life" are an interesting correlation. Thanks for giving me something to think about.I don't have a problem with the grace over works thing. Even as a JW, I never bought into the works thing.It's the free will issue that I constantly ruminate on:)
"It's good to question our preconceptions, especially when they've been given us by the WTS."
I think so, too. I tend to think more along the lines of universal symbols, though, so maybe I need to hone in on particulars a bit more. I've noticed the correlation between the world tree and divinty/messiahs/avatars/shamans in many mythologies, and have wondered about many of the shamanistic aspects of Christ. The new correlation you suggested between Christ and the tree of life has piqued my interest even more.
Thanks, Little Toe. I love when my brains hurt from thinking about new concepts someone has introduced me to:)
"In the overall story, who is the "good guy" and who is the "bad guy"?
Everything I read in the bible keeps telling me that the "God" character in the story is a brutal dictator who wants slaves who will blindly obey him and who will torture and kill anyone who defies him. Satan, on the other had, seems to want to grant everyone freedom."
This is why I think it does matter whether you think of the Bible as being even partly literal or not. Who the "good guy" is and who the "bad guy" is depends a lot on whether you identify yourself with and accept this particular world view, or if you view yourself as more of an outsider.
If you view the Bible as the literal word of God, you probably have no problem with the idea of dedicating yourself wholly to the God of the Bible. In this view, anything He does would been seen as being for the greater good, even if it does amount to killing people.God is seen as all-knowing, and loving, and that as the creator of all things, has the ultimate say over what will happen to His creation. This is a reflection of what happens in our time, when there are wars that must be fought. Some people think that the ends justify the means, that sometimes there must be sacrifice of the lives of despots and their supporters for the eventual greater good (the identification of the despots and their supporters being divided by political, religious, and ideological lines and deeds). Other people think that loss of life is never good, that it is our ideology about war that must evolve.
Who is right? Well, both sides really. But it often depends on circumstances which way society as a whole leans.
Same with good versus evil in the Bible. Some will distinctly separate the two entities-that God is all good and Satan is all bad (and heartily condemn others who don't think their way). Others will read the same thing and think that it depends on the issue, or decide that the accounts in the Bible are symbolic, meant to encourage us to examine events issue by issue (and heartily condemn people who take the Bible literally). And yet others think that there really would be no knowledge of what is good without its opposite being present, that Satan is just the shadow aspect of God.
A lot depends on an individual's own life experiences.And views on this can change as a person's experiences change.
We can look at our own lives, too. I don't think I'm all good, that's for damn sure. I can be vindictive, outraged, looking for justice. I can be altruistic, forgiving, and loving. Sometimes I can be everything at once (especially if my children are concerned, lol).
I don't know if that helps any. I'm just throwing out lots of theories today.
it's been co-opted by Christians, most of whom teach that the serpent is Satan the Devil, although there's nothing in the text to support this
"The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray." - Revelation 12:9
"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." - Revelation 20:2
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44
In addition the words used in the Garden of Eden account by Satan to decieve Eve are similar to the words he used at Job chapters 1 and 2, the difference being that in Job he sought to alienate God from man, whereas in Genesis it was man from God. In Genesis 3:5 Satan accuses God of having unworrthy motives and in Job he accuses the righteous man of the same.
Whew..silly me...I actually read ALL 7 pages...I guess I was intrigued......Anyway..my little thoughts on the matter is first of all...
1. If God is all knowing, why was he walking through the Garden calling for A & E if he knew where they were already? Just a thought.
2. Also if God is all knowing, (similiar to the thoughts about breeding the rabbits), why did he continue to let A & E breed? Because to my knowledge (I may be wrong) I have never read anywhere except for school books about dinosaurs and Cavemen, but it has been proven that they did exist. So if cavemen and dinosaurs came AFTER the first man and woman, why are they not mentioned in the Bible? If they came BEFORE A & E as some textbooks show( many more years ago than 6000) what happened to them? (Damn I'm confusing myself as I type this..its in my head but getting it out is the crucial part).....anyways what I'm saying is in the textbooks I always seen cavemen were always pictured as very non-intelligent in alot of ways. So maybe God wasn't too happy with humans, how they turned out looking and wiped them out along with the dinosaurs and started again with A & E...SO how are we to know (as someone else had mentioned) that we're not the 3rd, 4th, or maybe even 12th try...All i know is whenever people did something against Jehovah that was mentioned in the bible they were immediately punished in some way...The flood, Sodom and Gomarrah, Pharoah and his army...seems like to me any human that ever got in his way are messed up the plans was dealt with....Why doesn't he just deal with Satan the same way?
3. Not picking on the book because I am still reading it and enjoying the overall message...but in A Purpose Driven Life...the book mentions that God knows about us before we are even conceived as to how our whole entire life is going to turn out due to him having a purpose for each and every life....so with that said...all the murderers, rapists, molesters...are they fulfilling their purpose? If he knows they are going to stray from his purpose why let them even come to be...Just to screw up someone else's purposelife?
I have many more points but my brain has went into overload now..
Sweetp--- Who on earth believes that dinosaurs came after adam and eve ? You are the first person I've ever heard say that , it is obviously absurd , the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs per say but the creative days were long enough to include them in it somewhere prior to man being created . If we look at the creative account it says that life on earth began in the water hmmmm just like many scientists believe then the waters were parted for dry land and then the vegetation then the animals on dry land appear jeeezzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeee sounds just like what scientists believe here ,then man appears ...
To the rest of ya , A day for immortals is believed to be 1000 yrs. so adam and eve both died off before 1000 yrs . of life . Thus GOD was not a liar in any of this and was the good guy .
Holy shit, what a debate! Maw, come look at this one....
*goes back for more pork-rhinds....
Derek:
I take it you've read "Who Wrote the Bible"?
It has an interesting slant on the whole "Elohim / YHWH" issue.
Cicatrix:
There are lots of unanswered questions, both in that story and in the Bible generally. Mystery seems to be a fact of life, to me, though. Where moreso than in ancient stories? If there wasn't something for our brain to work on, we'd lose interest in it. So very human
One thing I will address though, is the issue of childhood. The story gives us no indication of the age/maturity of them when the fruit was eaten. The WTS idea of it being soon after creation is only to meet their own agendas in the post 1975 era.
But why do humans need grace to begin with...
Saving grace wasn't needed before the fall.
Nonetheless, I do believe it's a "spitirual evolution thing", as you put it.
Grace is the rope by which reconnection is possible, under the Christian framework, made up of interwoven "love". It's like being thrown a rope, which we need to catch hold of (by "faith"), because if we can't "see" it (by "faith"), how can we catch it?.
If man has cut his original rope (as exemplified by the Eden story), then he needs a new one, which grace supplies.
I tend to think more along the lines of universal symbols, though...
Me too
Thanks, Little Toe. I love when my brains hurt from thinking about new concepts someone has introduced me to:)
A pleasure.
Thanks for your comments.
Things like this keep my mind working, too.
hehe, I love the way I can read a topic title and before I even click it, I know who is taking what side, and for what reason.
To throw my two-penneth in, whether anyone likes it or not....
The thread title instantly assumes that God is an old guy with a beard and makes all the decisions around here.
IMHO, God is not some personified "Father Time" type figure. I know, the Bible gives all of that "He created man in His image" palava, which I personally don't hold much to. I see God as more of a force than anything, almost a feeling. If I had to put a word to it, my favorite descriptions are "The Light" and, as the Bible so beautifully puts it, "God is Love". To take that a little further, with a bit of algebra, we can see that "God = Love", therefore "Love = God"... Love IS God. Put it all together... you have an omnipresent Love, that emits Light and warmth.
(As a side note though, I do feel that sometimes personifying God in this way can help us have a more personal relationship with The Light)
As for Satan, not sure where this character came from, but it was probably some pee'd off spirit creature who fell from Grace way before the supposed "Adam and Eve" incident. Yes, Satan does represent all that is evil... but when you think about it, did Satan fly those planes on 9/11? Did Satan commit all those murders in the Holocaust? Nope... humans did. Plain old disconnected from The Light humans. We are the only ones to blame for our "sins".
Simply put, I believe that God isn't around us as a referee, and doesn't really "do" anything, just as Love itself doesn't "do" anything when left alone and not used. But when people start to love, and connect to God's power, that is when good things happen. And bad things? Just the opposite, when people hate, and disconnect from the ever-flowing love, bad things happen.
You and I are both God and Satan.
FMZ
Edited to change the last line to: You and I have the potential to be God or Satan.
ozziepost:
"The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray." - Revelation 12:9"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." - Revelation 20:2
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44
Even if you assume that these verses are identifying Satan with the serpent in Eden which is not necessarily a valid reading, that lines up exactly with what I said earlier, that the story was "co-opted by Christians, most of whom teach that the serpent is Satan the Devil, although there's nothing in the text to support this"
In addition the words used in the Garden of Eden account by Satan to decieve Eve are similar to the words he used at Job chapters 1 and 2, the difference being that in Job he sought to alienate God from man, whereas in Genesis it was man from God. In Genesis 3:5 Satan accuses God of having unworrthy motives and in Job he accuses the righteous man of the same.
I think that's something of a stretch. The words may be similar but the style is completely different. Nothing in the text of Job identifies the "adversary" with the serpent in Genesis. In fact, when God asks him where he has been, he answers: "From roving about on the earth, and from walking up and down in it." This is certainly not the serpent who's been condemned to crawl on his belly. But like the serpent, this adversary gets a hard time from religious types too. In fact it is God who brings up the subject of Job, and it is he who initiates the bet.
Again, even if the writer of Job does associate the adversary with the serpent - and there is nothing in the text to indicate this is the case - that does not mean the writer of Genesis thought the same.
heathen:
If we look at the creative account it says that life on earth began in the water hmmmm just like many scientists believe then the waters were parted for dry land and then the vegetation then the animals on dry land appear jeeezzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeee sounds just like what scientists believe here ,then man appears ...
No, the Genesis account is not at all like "what scientists believe" anymore than the "Just So" stories by Rudyard Kipling tie in well with modern evolutionary theory, although there are some superficial similarities in both cases.
To the rest of ya , A day for immortals is believed to be 1000 yrs. so adam and eve both died off before 1000 yrs . of life . Thus GOD was not a liar in any of this and was the good guy.
That sounds like a technicality. As he was talking to mortals, why didn't he tell them that if they ate from it, they would be dead within a thousand years?
LittleToe:
I take it you've read "Who Wrote the Bible"?
It has an interesting slant on the whole "Elohim / YHWH" issue.
I haven't actually. Who wrote it? I bet it was the Jews
Seriously though, just reading Genesis and trying to avoid the preconceptions is very difficult for those who've been indoctrinated, but it's a very different story. It isn't the story of a pair of greedy humans being deceived by a fallen angel and rebelling against a benevolent and omnipotent god. It's been interpreted that way, but the text doesn't justify such a reading.
