Report: U.S. Mistakenly fires on Wedding Party in Iraq (page 9)

Realist

rem,

just as it was too early to tell during the nation building exercizes in Japan and Germany.

the comparison with germany has no grounds! politically, mentality wise and development wise a completely different situation.

Heathen,

I'm going to give you an analogy, and please don't understand me to try and claim that the situation in Iraq is identical, but I believe the following is good enough in priciple to not be a false analogy:

A radical political group takes over 100 people hostage in a theater. They threaten to kill some hostages every hour. The police know that if they do nothing, innocent people will die. But they also know that if they do try to rescue the hostages there is a good chance that some will be killed in the crossfire. Negotiating with the hostage takers is not progressing and the police decide to go in. Ultimately 20 hostages die during the rescue attempt.

The point? Collateral damage happened. It was unavoidable, but the intent was good. I believe that to ignore intent is to turn everyone into monsters. In this case to ignore intent makes the police look like the bad guys - they killed innocent people.

What I'm getting at is the world is not black and white. Read up on game theory, the prisoner's dilema, zero-sum games, and non-zero sum games and you will begin to understand why it is so difficult to do the "right" thing sometimes - because most times you are chosing between two or more "wrong" things and you have to try and calculate what is the least "wrong".

Is there room for improvement? Probably with better training, more sophisticated technology, and improved rules of engagement. Will it ever be perfect? I doubt it and I don't see the lack of perfection as a reasonalbe excuse for non-action.

Let's criticize where appropriate (and it very well may be appropriate in this instance)... but to expect perfection is not reasonable.

rem

rem

Realist,

I just included Germany because it was happening at the same time as Japan. I believe that the situation in Japan, though not identical in any sense, does give hope that another type of Eastern society can be democratized. I think there are too many variables up in the air right now to declare the current attempt a failure at this point.

rem

frenchbabyface

Rem : Let's criticize where appropriate (and it very well may be appropriate in this instance)... but to expect perfection is not reasonable.

We expect reflexion before WAR ? not that much to ask

Rem : I think there are too many variables

The reason why ...

Yerusalyim

It took ten years for Germany to become stable enough to govern itself...the Bush administration is bowing to the leftists on this issues of sovergnty...too soon.

No, it is too late (it is true since de begining - this war was based on false accusation)

And what false accusations were those my French sweetie pie?

frenchbabyface

OoooOoooOOooooOOOOooooh Yeru !

not gonna your question (already done somewhere) I don't feel like I have to arguing on this at all any more. THIS WAR WAS EVERYTHING BUT FAIR . Most of the people in the world knows that this war was unfair, you just add more mass killing in your records just like Israel (they just can't hold it they need to take and they don't care killing but they are crying theire death ! !!!! PLEASE ... Where do you think this leads ?

I really wonder who you are YERU, cause somehow I feel that you are honnest, but something is wrong and almost frightening in knowing that they don't push you to be more objective as a military (but we have a clue why) REALISED that :

US is one of the mass killer (face to face or from behind even both) FACE IT ! (you are not guilty till you haven't been proven guilty) it works for a man, I guess it should work moreover for a country ! (And don't tell me you went there for them ... cause you should have known you were geting into a vietnam type of war and that you would have to leave !!! and let the population in WHO'S hands ? You don't even know who is your real enemy now ? - somehow you are your own enemy and check out your own boss sometimes (it is not a crime, it is a right).

donkey

US is one of the mass killer (face to face or from behind even both) FACE IT !

Spoken like a "brave" Frenchman...

SixofNine

Realist,

I just included Germany because it was happening at the same time as Japan. I believe that the situation in Japan, though not identical in any sense, does give hope that another type of Eastern society can be democratized. I think there are too many variables up in the air right now to declare the current attempt a failure at this point.

rem

Good luck with that.

BAGHDAD -- It was after nightfall when they finally found their offices at Saddam Hussein's Republican Palace -- 11 jet-lagged, sweaty, idealistic volunteers who had come to help Iraq along the road to democracy.

When the U.S. government went looking for people to help rebuild Iraq, they had responded to the call. They supported the war effort and President Bush. Many had strong Republican credentials. They were in their twenties or early thirties and had no foreign service experience. On that first day, Oct. 1, they knew so little about how things worked that they waited hours at the airport for a ride that was never coming. They finally discovered the shuttle bus out of the airport but got off at the wrong stop.
...
The CPA was designed to be a grand experiment in nation-building, a body of experts who would be Iraq's guide for transforming itself into a model for democracy in the Middle East. Unlike previous reconstruction efforts, it was to be manned by civilians -- advisers on politics, law, medicine, transportation, agronomy and other key areas. They were supposed to be experts, but many of the younger hires who filled the CPA's hallways were longer on enthusiasm than on expertise.
...
For months they wondered what they had in common, how their names had come to the attention of the Pentagon, until one day they figured it out: They had all posted their resumes at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative-leaning think tank.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48543-2004May22.html

Realist

yeru,

It took ten years for Germany to become stable enough to govern itself

it took 4 not 10 years until the first election.

besdes you are missing the qualitative difference between the two cases. germany was a high tech country with highly educated and motivated people whose heritage lies i western culture with western ideals and family structures.

iraq as arab islamic country has completely different social structures, a strong religious believe system which holds them back and a large number of very poor uneducated people. to make this into a working democracy and not just some US satellite state will be very complicated (if that would be the true intention).

Report: U.S. Mistakenly fires on Wedding Party in Iraq

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