To the Defenders of George Bush and the War in Iraq

by Greenpalmtreestillmine 208 Replies latest social current

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    So Simon, hows that Irish Occupation going??

    Realist,

    the idea would be that everyone works as hard as he /she can and gets everything to live a comfortable life in return. no rich people no poor people.

    1) We already have the ability to bust our butts and get a comfortable life

    2) You make the assumpiton that everyone would work hard. What if they didnt want to? Are you going to force them?

    3) How do you define hard work? If I write alot of reports or I sell cars am I working harder than a brink layer? Are you going to have report quotas or brink quotas??

    It just flat out doesnt work.

    It will not work becuase People do not want to be DRONES.

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    It seems we have alot of Brits here who are pro-palastinian and against the Isreali Occupation. I think its only fair then for the rest of us to Support the IRA and their attempts to end the British Occupation of Ireland. Go IRA!

  • Realist
    Realist

    crazy,

    yes i know it most likely would not work even with a good leadership.

    nevertheless it is a nice fantasy.

  • avishai
    avishai
    It seems we have alot of Brits here who are pro-palastinian and against the Isreali Occupation.

    It cracks me up, because Britain is who screwed it up in the first place by shipping in a ton of folks from Jordan and The Lebanon right before they pulled out. They knew it would keep Israel busy.

  • FirstInLine
    FirstInLine

    Realist,

    I think you may be confusing communism with socialism.

    In communism all businesses and industries are owned and controlled by the government. There is usually only one version of everything. One midsized SUV (if the government thinks SUVs are ok), one brand of cola (or possibly even one flavor carbonated beverage), a lack of imports to avoid a trade decifit since foreigners dont want your worthless commie crap products, a complete lack of power to the individual because no one has the money to organize and team up. This last problem inevitable leads to a totalitarian government. Communism may not be a totalitarian, Mao, Stalin system but it always leads to one based on social and economic forces.

    I think you need to check out socialism. Socialism has some of the fundamental flaws of communism which cause a stagnant economy and a lack of foriegn investment but dont lead to totalitariansm and do allow privately owned businesses and competition, along with differing economic classes, which are a necessary evil.

  • dubla
    dubla

    simon-

    Oh, I see you are back again ...

    you know ive been around...youve been on the same threads as i have all year long, and youve received my messages, even though you ignored them. the little "they all ran away in shame" picture you painted doesnt apply to me, in fact ive admitted where i was wrong on the issues....something you are not big enough to do. nice try though. i certainly dont participate in all the political threads, as the vast majority of them are simple reincarnations of the same arguments, and they never seem to go anywhere productive.

    Sorry, but when I've made my point I see little reason to keep having to repeat it just because some die-hard republican zealot refuses to accept the facts.

    first off, thats not what im talking about, not in the least. ive proven you wrong on specific points, such as "we supplied the gas" for example, and youve always tucked tail and ran whenever faced with solid evidence against your claims. if you want other examples, id be happy to dig and find some links.

    secondly, i find it funny that you generalize me as a "diehard republican zealot" simply because of my stance on the war (sounds like something trauma hound would say). isnt this the type of generalization and labeling that youve asked us all to refrain from? (i have noticed you breaking some of your own rules and guidelines lately though, so maybe youve recently taken a "do as i say, not as i do" tact.) i certainly lean to the right, but there are many issues on which i disagree completely with the republican stance, if youd like to discuss them, id be happy to. i dont blindly follow any party line, and i think its strange that there are so many that do. take care,

    aa

  • Realist
    Realist

    first in line,

    i don't think i confuse them!

    i communism there would be (strictly speaking) no private posessions and no money. everything would be owned by the community. there would be no private companies etc.

    but this does not mean you can have only one type of car or house or clothing. why should this system put restraints on creativity? it would put restraints on economical freedom but not on creativity.

    very much like in john lennons song IMAGINE.

    but again i do know that this most likely can never work without a significat evolutionary evolvement of humans.

  • FirstInLine
    FirstInLine
    i communism there would be (strictly speaking) no private posessions and no money.

    Im sorry but this isnt true. Communism is an economic system and there is money in that system. The money is used to aquire personal possessions. There are no private businesses or industries. They are all government owned and operated.

    why should this system put restraints on creativity?

    That being the case there is no need for competition because they are non-profit. Introducing competing versions of the same products creates unnecessary inefficiency. Efficiency is the holy grail in communism. Therefore you end up with very little variety in communism. Why would you put out products that are less popular then other products if you had no incentive to do so? Putting out different products of the same products means you have to spend additional money to develop something that you already have. You have to pay engineers to do the same thing over and over. You have to pay engineers to build altered manufacturing equipment to build a slightly different product. Why would you do that? What incentive would the government have to do that? The people already have one version of the product.

    In capitalism we have a similar philosophy in corporations. Corporations are efficient because they eliminate management positions of several companies and consolidate them. This raises the profit margin. Back in the late 1800s and early 1900s we had massive companies called trusts. They monopolized the market and eliminated their competition. Among the many characteristics they had was diabolical efficiency. They violated the capitalist doctrines of competion and free market though so the government put a stop to them.

    Why cant communist nations simply import products to increase variety? Well they can, but as I already stated Communist nations must avoid importing capitalist products. Capitalist consumer products are vastly superior. That being the case communist products are not consumed by capitalists because they suck. The problem this creates is communist nations would end up bleeding off all their money to capitalist countries and their poducts would go almost completely unused. At some point the system breaks.

    In case you wonder why communist products suck I will explain.

    There are several reasons communist products suck. Here is the first reason. In communism you always have shortages. This is because worker productivity falls over time. There is no punishment or reward for your work ethic. No one is motivated to put out the effort so most people don't. This leads to shortages because people stop pulling there weight. One person can't make a difference. The ones that are pulling there weight are eventually pulled down by the ones that aren't. They realize the futility of working hard. This creates a very poor work force that snowballs into despair.

    The second reason communist products suck has already been mentioned. It is because there is no incentive to improve existing products. Improvement requires money for Research and Development. Since very few endeavors are worthwhile there is very little R&D in consumer products. In reality since communism and capitalism are diametrically opposed they are constantly seeking newer and better weapons. This money for R&D which would be essentially wasted on consumer products is eagerly put into use on Military projects, which are the most useless products of all for an economy. The only benefit military projects provide is advancing technologies that may have civilian applications but in communism civilian applications are only done on an as NEEDED basis. Playstation II is not needed in communism. Nor is a flat plasma HDTV. The Lord of the Rings and its special effects arent much of a use either. Creativity DOES exist in communism. But it is limited by money.

    The ultimate difference between the two systems is that in capitalism people need to be responsible for themselves. They can get fired from their jobs and lose their homes. They can feel as though they are underachieving and seek to better themselves. In communism people are not responsible for their own prosperity they depend on everyone else much more than they depend on themselves.

    It is true that in capitalism we depend on everyone else to make the system work but our system works because the individual feels the effect of his failure much more than the community.

  • FirstInLine
    FirstInLine

    Realist,

    i communism there would be (strictly speaking) no private posessions and no money. everything would be owned by the community. there would be no private companies etc.

    Ok I think I understand what you are saying. I didn't realize you had such lofty ideals. Ok you are envisioning a system of government imposed rationing.

    This is even more bureuacratic and inefficient than the system I described in my previous response but I will humor you for a moment and show you how what you are proposing becomes even more restrictive in terms of product variety or is actually a money system and you dont realize it.

    I think what you are envisioning is a system in which the government simply pays you in products instead of giving you the money to buy the products. This is whay you meant by no money.

    One way of doing this would be to set up distribution centers and then people take what they need. The problem is people will take more than they need. So you would have to ration out how things are distributed. You would say some one has credit for recieving "xyz" or "abc" but not both because they dont have credit for it. Credit would be based on what? Work? So they are being paid for their work? There must be a medium in which credit is established from their job to the store. Whatever you decide to call it, this is money.

    You might also want to get more bureaucratic and have the government deliver your needs at your place of work so you dont need the money. This creates inefficiency. Shipping is costly. This cost does not overcome the benefit of not having money. The other problem is not everyone wants the same thing.

    Some people like to use hair gel. Some people dont. Some people like rice. Some dont. Some people..... You see what I mean. You have to have money because money is more efficient then any complex bureaucracy established to replace it. You are also leaving out the problem of corruption that bureaucracy creates.

  • FirstInLine
    FirstInLine
    very much like in john lennons song IMAGINE.

    I think I am going to write a Song Called "Pipe Dream" based on John Lennon's Imagination. I have been a John Lennon critic for years. He is anything but realistic. I am not saying he is a bad guy but he offers no solution to any problem. "Give peace a chance" he says. That's not going to work when someone is spraying bullets at you. And if you are going to tell me I am oversimplifying his messages then go listen to the other words, he admits it himself that he has no plan. "ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE."

    You see. That all we need to do. The next time Germany, Austria and Japan team up and conquer Europe and the Pacific we Just have to say Hey!! GIVE PEACE A CHANCE GUYS Comeone chillout, smoke some weed with us dude, kick back and party

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