ALL things mean exactly like that: ALL things. Then how do you know that it only refers to things having to do with the earth? Does the bible specifically teach that anywhere?
Richie :*)
Does Jesus being the "Son of God" mean that he is not God by nature ?
by hooberus 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Richie
In Mt 4:10, Jesus clearly has the authority to rebuke Satan and does so. Jude 9 says, ?But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil?he did not dare to bring a judgment against him?but said, ?May Jehovah rebuke you.? If Jesus is Michael the Archangel, why did Michael refuse to rebuke Satan in Jude 9, when he clearly did so in Mt 4:10?
If Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he became a man, then why does Dan 10:13 refer to Michael as ?ONE of the foremost princes? implying that he was equal to other angels? If Christ was Michael the Archangel before the incarnation, then became Jesus, then changed back into Michael the Archangel after his death, why does Heb 13:8 say that, ?Jesus Christ is the SAME yesterday and today, and forever.?? How could Christ be ?the same? if he changed from being Michael, into being Jesus, then back into being Michael again? If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Mt 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself? Similarly, if Jesus was Michael the Archangel before his birth, then how do you explain Heb 1:13 which says, ?But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said : ?Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet?? In addition, if Jesus became Michael the Archangel upon his resurrection, why did none of the New Testament writers refer to the resurrected Christ as ?Michael? by name? Can you point out one verse, just one, that says that Jesus and Michael are the same?
Richie :*) -
herk
hooberus,
In bible times the phrase "the Son of God" was understood as a claim to the nature of God, not a claim to be a lesser being:
Adam was "the Son of God." (Luke 3:38) Solomon was "the Son of God." (2 Samuel 7:14) Collectively the whole nation of Israel was "the Son of God." (Exodus 4:22)
According to Matthew 16:16, Simon Peter said to Jesus: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." But according to Trinitarians, Simon Peter meant: "You are the Christ, God the Son."
According to Matthew 26:63, the high priest said to Jesus:"I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." But according to Trinitarians, the high priest meant: "Tell us whether you are the Christ, that living God by whom I adjure you."
According to John 1:49, Nathanael said to Jesus: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." But according to Trinitarians, Nathanael meant: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are God the Son."
herk
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Kenneson
O Happy Day,
I don't deny that angels because they are the greatest of God's creation and others in the Old Testament are called sons of God and that believers are also called sons of God (through adoption) , but you can't deny that the New Testament places Jesus' Sonship as unique. The whole of chapters 1 and 2 of Hebrews compares the Son to angels and he is superior. If there is nothing special about Jesus (and he's just another son of God like the many others), than why does He have such a prominent role in the New Testament? Why would John 1:14 reserve for Jesus the title: "only begotten-Son?" This is never applied to any angels or anyone else.
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herk
hooberus,
If the above is correct, and the phrase "the Son of God" also meant that Jesus was by nature God, then we would expect that He would be called both "God" and "Son of God" in the scriptures: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." John 20:28
We ought not to force John's Gospel to conform to historically later speculation by Greek theologians. Rather than looking at Thomas' expression through a Trinitarian prism, it would be far better to see his words "Lord" and "God" as simply Messianic titles from the Old Testament. The previously skeptic apostle did not suddenly adopt the Nicene or the Athanasian Creed and see his Lord as "very God of very God." Instead, he recognized in the risen Jesus the one appointed to be ho theos ["the God"] of the coming age, replacing Satan, the ho theos ["the God" - 2 Corinthians 4:4] of the present age.
In John 10:34, Jesus himself referred to men as "gods" because they served as representives of the one true God. On no occasion did Jesus refer to himself as God in the absolute sense. Thomas could call Jesus "my God" because the early Christians used the word with a broader meaning than is customary today. "God" was a descriptive title that applied to a range of authorities, including the Roman emperor. It was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today.
(Keep in mind that when Trinitarians claim the Jesus is God, they are not saying that Jesus is the person of the Father, but that Jesus is God by nature along with the Father).
Within the realm of human "nature" there are billions of persons who exist as billions of individual beings. But within the Trinitarian idea of God "nature" are three persons who exist as one being. The inconsistency of Trinitarian definitions should be obvious. They give the term "nature" one meaning when applying it to humans and another meaning when applied to God. A human father and a human son are not two persons existing as one human being. Yet, Trinitarians insist that God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three persons who exist as one being.
herk
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Kenneson
Herk,
You state that God "was not limited to its absolute sense as a personal name for the supreme Deity as we use it today." Then, what say ye of John 20:17?
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Richie
The Bible says that: The heavens are the work of God?s hands (Ps 102:25), the heavens are the work of Jesus? hand (Heb 1:10); God laid the foundations of the earth (Isa 48:13), Jesus laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10); God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14, 1Chron 16:33), Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12); God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22), Jesus (the Lamb) is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22); God is the alpha and omega (Rev 1:8), Jesus is the alpha and omega (Rev 22:13); God is the first and last (Isa 44:6, 48:12), Jesus is the first and last (Rev 22:13); God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6), Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13); Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21), Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20); God is our hope (Ps 71:5), Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:1); God is eternal (Deut 33:27), Jesus is eternal (Isa 9:6, Heb 1:10-11); God will come with all the holy ones (Zech 14:5), Jesus will come with all the holy ones (1Thess 3:13); Only God is our savior (Isa 43:11), Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1); God is the creator of the universe (Isa 44:24, Jer 27:5), Jesus is the creator of the universe (Jn 1:3); To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Isa 45:22-23), to Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Phil 2:10-11); God is the same and his years will have no end (Ps 102:27), Jesus is the same and his years will have no end (Heb 1:12); God is immutable (Mal 3:6), Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8); God is over all (Ps 97:9), Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31); the spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9), the spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6); God is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (Isa 8:14), Jesus is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8); God was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-13), Jesus was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Mt 26:14-16); God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1), Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20); God is Mighty God (Isa 10:21), Jesus is Mighty God (Isa 9:6); God is Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3), Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14); God is our only Rock (Isa 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22), Jesus is our rock (1 Cor 10:4); God is our owner (Isa 54:5), Jesus is our only owner (Jude 4); No one can snatch us out of God?s hand (Deut 32:39), no one can snatch us out of Jesus? hand (Jn 10:28); God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3), Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-9); God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12), Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12); God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12), Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19); God?s words will stand forever (Isa 40:8), Jesus? words will stand forever (Mt 24:35); God is the eternal light (Isa 60:19), Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:23); God seeks to save the lost (Ezek 34:16), Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10); Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1), Paul is a slave of Jesus (Rom 1:1) even though no man can slave for two masters (Mt 6:24); God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1), Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21); God is our guide (Ps 48:14), Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79); God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2), Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26); God is called God (Isa 44:8), Jesus is called God (Isa 9:6, Jn 20:28); God is the King of Israel (Isa 44:6), Jesus is the King of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:49).
Since the Bible does not contradict itself, how can all these things be true if Jesus is not God?
Richie :*)
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herk
hooberus,
What does God say about the Son in the book of Hebrews? : "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:8-9
Hebrews 1:8, 9, is a quote from Psalm 45:6, 7. That Psalm was addressed to the king of Israel sitting upon the Davidic throne. The word "God" as applied to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8, 9, meant the same as the way it applied to David in Psalm 45:6, 7. The writer of Hebrews was not using the word to suggest that Jesus is Almighty God any more than the psalmist was hinting that David was Almighty God. "God" in both texts was used as a royal title applicable to special representatives of the true God. Since they spoke for him and acted in place of him, their words were to be accepted as if God himself had spoken through them. The Hebrew word is elohim, a word that applied to Moses and others, as well as to David and Jesus. (Exodus 7:1; 22:9, 28; Psalms 82:6)
Though addressed as "God," the king on David's throne is said to have a God who "hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." David's "fellows" were his countrymen who were also blessed by God but not as greatly. Jesus' "fellows" are sanctified human disciples he is not ashamed to call "brethren". (Hebrews 2:11)
herk
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herk
hooberus,
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." Hebrews 1:10-12
Hebrews 1:10-12 is a quote from Psalm 102:25-27. The Psalm does not refer to the literal heavens and earth since these will not perish.
- Numbers 14:21 - But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
- 1 Chronicles 16:30 - Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
- Psalms 93:1 - The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
- Psalms 104:5 - Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
- Isaiah 11:9 - They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
- Isaiah 45:18 - For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
- Habakkuk 2:14 - For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
The "heavens and earth" are used figuratively elsewhere:
- Psalms 66:4 - All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee.
- Psalms 96:1 - O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
- M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopaedia, Vol. IV, p. 122 - In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.
Psalm 102 is Messianic. It was written for the "generation to come: and the people which shall be created." (Verse 18, and compare verses 13-16.) The Messiah makes men and women for his kingdom. In the New Testament, "create" is frequently used in reference to this regenerative work of the Lord:
- 2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
- Galatians 6:15 - For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
- Ephesians 2:10, 15 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make [create] in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
- Ephesians 4:23, 24 - And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
- James 1:18 - Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The heavens and earth which were to pass away, rolled up like a garment, are the Mosaic "heavens and earth." This is indicated by the following:
- The writer to the Hebrews elsewhere in his epistle alludes to the language of Psalm 102:26 in describing the termination of the Mosaic order: "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13)
The people "that shall be created" refers to those in the new covenant. (Psalms 102:18) It was prophesied of Christ: "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first [old covenant], that he may establish the second. By the which will we [believers] are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:9) Again, the context indicates the termination of the Mosaic order.
The argument in Hebrews 1 is that the Son has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than the angels. (Hebrews 1:4) The reference to the Mosaic "heavens and earth" is an effective argument since angels administered the constitution. (Acts 7:38, 53; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2) This was the constitution to be folded up as a garment by the Son--therefore the Son must have a more excellent name than the angels.
Hebrews 1:10 might appear to ascribe the Genesis creation to Jesus, but in fact it does not do so. The writer expressly says that he is writing about "the world to come." (Hebrews 2:5; 6:5)
herk
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herk
hooberus,
What about the Watchtowers claim that the Son of God is an angel?
While I agree that the Watchtower is in error about Jesus being the archangel Michael, what about the Catholic and Protestant claim that the Son of God is "the angel of the Lord"?
herk