McVeigh vs Death Penalty

by Amazing 272 Replies latest jw friends

Julie

Amazing,
:I am not certain what you mean here, or what point you are maiing with this. I will say that the violence a child gets exposed to that causdes harm is noit the peaceful way that the justice system executes criminals, but the hitting by abusive parents, violence at school, and in movies, etc.
Ok, I will talk slowly for you. The violence that a child gets exposed/subjected to is what turns the child into one of the people that goes into our prison system. It produces angry and all around fucked up people. If you would like some documentation of this fact I will be happy to provide. I also have an serious knowledge of the effects of neglect, if you are so inclined......
:prove your point. Where is the evidence to support your claim. The cost of a trial where a person gets convicted is going to occur whether they are sentanced to death or not. Secondly, once executed, they do not tie up court costs with numerous appeals and battles for life. I would have to see the actual cost from an objective study to be convinced of your claim.
Oh my, but you are in denial aren't you? Why don't you just have a look at some of the headlines around the nation and see the $50 million+ pricetag on the McVeigh thing alone. Get your head out of the sand. And mind you that's a case where there is no doubt the guy did it!!
:I disagree with you on both counts. The use of execution does not mean we are not civilized, nor does our being mostly Christian have anything to do with our being advanced or not. The evil criminal who raped, tortures, mutulates, and kills innocent victims are the uncivilized animals ... and taking away their life is the only fair thing to do.
Tell me Amazing (and indeed you seem to be just that), how do people become "evil criminals"? Hmmm? Are they just "born bad"? Or are they products of their environment. That would be the environment we, the adults, provide. I think the only fair thing to do is to provide a healthy upbringing for the children we bring into this world. Then we wouldn't have to come up with humane methods of killing them after we have turned them into fucked-up adults. But there's that ugly fact again....the fact that babies are clean slates and become what WE turn them into. Deal with it.
Julie
SlayerLayer

Awwwww...did da poor wittle muhdawah have a bad environment to grow up in? Poor wittle guy.
Quit hugging trees with your bleeding heart. Go save some whales or something.
We have all grown up in this same world. Yet I doubt that Amazing has ever killed anyone.We have all been subjected the violence of everyday life. Yet, I can't recall killing anyone either.
What? Is it the video games? Is it television that should be done away with? Bullshit.
I know damn well that here in South Carolina if I were to kill someone, I may face the death penalty. Therefore, even if I had violent tendancies and wanted to murder someone common sense would dictate that I would die. If the average killer isn't smart enough to figure that out, then he or she needs to put out of our misery.
JustAThought

...the fact that babies are clean slates and become what WE turn them into.
Is that a fact?
Isn't it true that a baby is really not a clean slate? Isn't a baby chock full of personality, ability, temperament, potential, etc. before he/she ever comes into the world? Aren't even babies different in these aspects of their being? If the only determinant is nurture, could all have been a Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Beethoven, Einstein, Jesus, Ghandi, or ... Hitler?
If nurture could have played a crucial role in McVeigh's becoming one who would do what he did, don't you think that his defense would have played that to the hilt? Yet, I haven't heard anything like that.
So ... is it nature or is it nurture, or is it some combination of the two? And isn't it true that, in most cases, where there is no clear-cut evidence one way or another, it's way too complicated to tell?
JustAThought
rem

So am I off base? Is the only real civilized solution to remove criminals from society, but not hamper their inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? This obviously cannot be done within the walls of a prison, can it? Are we still a barbaric society until we set aside a place to banish such ones where they are free to make up their own way of life? A land where they have their own society and government, and yet they are not allowed back into mainstream society until their sentence is up or for life?
I may be arguing a slippery slope here, but I am curious as to what human rights really are and how we can decide to deprive criminals of certain ones and still claim to be a civilized society. I'm basing this off of the fact that some opponents of the death penalty have stated that taking the life of a mass murderer is barbaric. Doesn't the line just move back a step, and then we are still barbaric for infringing upon a hardened criminal's right to the pursuit of happiness, and then again to his right to liberty?
Are there any situations in which a person rightly forfeits some or all of his human rights because of his blatant disregard for the human rights of others? Obviously opponents of the death penalty are not moving towards abolishing prisons, so does that mean that liberty is not really a human right, or is it okay to take certain human rights away, but not others?
Does anyone else have a different opinion of what human rights really are? Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are all I've heard so far. Are there others. Do some on this list not belong?
I have more questions than answers. :)
rem
Amazing

Julie:
In response to a simple question, you open by saying, "Ok, I will talk slowly for you."
Getting snide and arrogant is not necessary. I asked a simple question, so why not just try and answer it. I am well educated, and after 50 years of life, I have been exposed to many situations and much of what life brings on ... you do not need to talk down to me.
You continued, "The violence that a child gets exposed/subjected to is what turns the child into one of the people that goes into our prison system. It produces angry and all around fucked up people. If you would like some documentation of this fact I will be happy to provide. I also have an serious knowledge of the effects of neglect, if you are so inclined......"
No, I don't need your documentation on this. The basis of my question is that you seem to be debating some point you have regarding the death penalty. Some people believe that by executing criminals that this teaches more violence to children. I thought that was where you were headed with your point, but asked a simple question to make aure. What I got in response from you was sndie sarcasm, and a generic response that most people already understand and accept.
You continued by quoting my request to prove your point as to solid evidence to support your claim that the cost of execution exceeds the costs of life in prison and the lengthy appeals and court processes involved. You responded by saying, "Oh my, but you are in denial aren't you? Why don't you just have a look at some of the headlines around the nation and see the $50 million+ pricetag on the McVeigh thing alone. Get your head out of the sand. And mind you that's a case where there is no doubt the guy did it!!"
Your use of ad hominem argumnents will not suffice. The cost of the 'McVeigh' thing had to do with his trial and conviction. His execution alone did not cost $50 Million. The costs associated with his trial would have been incurred anyway. I am not in any denial. I asked for something tangible, and so far you can only provide generalities. Now, please, provide some credible and objective evidence of your claim.
In response to my support of executions (in limited situations like McVeigh's) you response by saying, "Tell me Amazing (and indeed you seem to be just that), how do people become "evil criminals"? Hmmm? Are they just "born bad"? Or are they products of their environment. That would be the environment we, the adults, provide."
Not everything can be blamed on environment. Some people with the best of circumstances still choose to do bad things, be it stealing, violence, or murder. Yes, environment is a major factor, but individual responsibility is also an important factor, and one that cannot be ignored.
You continued, "I think the only fair thing to do is to provide a healthy upbringing for the children we bring into this world. Then we wouldn't have to come up with humane methods of killing them after we have turned them into fucked-up adults. But there's that ugly fact again....the fact that babies are clean slates and become what WE turn them into. Deal with it."
Again, while environment is an important factor, it is not the only cause of people turning to crime. I grew up in a terrible environment and yet managed to live a law abiding life. Others born into the best of environments have turned out to be terrible criminals. I fail to see your debate here that the death penalty is wrong because someone was a product of their environment.
These are separate issues. Of course we all must do a better job in parenting and the social structure we provide, including the environment. Individual accountability and responsibility are also important factors. We are never going to have a perfect world where every little baby grows up cuddled in a perfect home. Now you deal with it.
It sometimes boils down to a 'kill or be killed' model. Example: The Arabs in the middle east who are engaged in their Holy Jihad against the evil empire (meaning the western nations, especially the USA) are not interested in our philosophies and debates, They will bomb and terrorize until we either give up or until we kill them.
Some criminals will kill until they are killed. I have yet to see one good argument against the death penalty in these limited cases I cite, such as McVeigh's. Using snide and aloof language only betrays your inability to deal with facts and present your case. It will not work with me. If you have facts and credible studies that the death penalty costs more than life in prison, then provide those objective and credible studies. - Amazing
Englishman

SlayerLayer,
You said:"Tell me, in Europe, do the police even carry guns? Or do they shout "Stop! or I'll say stop again!"
Actually, no, things haven't got quite that bad yet. If you are stopped for speeding you may be asked: "Are you aware that you were travelling at 89mph on the motorway and that the speed limit is 70mph, sir?"
Re guns, no I have never seen a policeman with a gun. I believe that some officers at the airports carry guns, but I have never seen it. I think that some French gendarmes are armed.
Englishman.
..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.
Julie

Amazing,
:Some criminals will kill until they are killed. I have yet to see one good argument against the death penalty in these limited cases I cite, such as McVeigh's. Using snide and aloof language only betrays your inability to deal with facts and present your case. It will not work with me. If you have facts and credible studies that the death penalty costs more than life in prison, then provide those objective and credible studies. - Amazing
Ok, here is a site with all the facts available regarding costs on the death penalty issue. http://www.uscourts.gov/dpenalty/4REPORT.htm
You will find the facts support my statement. It takes more time and effort and lab. testing to take a capital case to trial. Like I said, go to the site, you'll see for yourself.
If there are other things you would like to know, details, simply put death penalty into a search engine and you will have them. I am not one to quote chapter and verse as I don't have that kind of retention, but I am able to retain the gist of what I learn. I can see how you might want documentation of such assertions though so I have provided that for you.
The reason I gave you the "I will speak slowly for you " business is that it was completely beyond me how you could have compared my mentioning abusive childhoods to the "peaceful" method of execution we use. I just have no idea where you got that and it was quite irritating, after reading more of your post, to see you made more than one wrong connection. Almost twisting what I said, not quite and maybe not intentionally but nonetheless, irritating.
SlayerLayer,
Sorry to have disregarded your first reply to me but you have my undivided attention now.
:Awwwww...did da poor wittle muhdawah have a bad environment to grow up in? Poor wittle guy.
Did I say that? No SL, I wasn't talking justification for crimes committed, I am talking prevention for future crimes. It is obvious you are still not over whatever happened to you as a child and I am sorry to see/hear it.
:Quit hugging trees with your bleeding heart. Go save some whales or something.
If by "bleeding heart" you mean I am compassionate to my fellow humans, especially those who are victimized by those that are suppose to protect them, thank you. I am not interested in saving whales or hugging trees. I'd rather save lives and hug a child. But hey, I guess I am just a lunatic.
:We have all grown up in this same world.
My friend, you have no idea what you are talking about. I would wager anything you and I are from completely different worlds. Frankly I prefer mine as yours doesn't seem to have condusive to producing a compassionate adult by any means.
:Yet I doubt that Amazing has ever killed anyone.We have all been subjected the violence of everyday life. Yet, I can't recall killing anyone either.
Your good citizen commendation is on the way.
:What? Is it the video games? Is it television that should be done away with? Bullshit.
Sorry SL but I don't subscribe to that lame-ass excuse either. How nice of you to assume I am one of those scape-goating, finger-pointing crybabies who lets their kids raise themselves and blame the world.
:I know damn well that here in South Carolina if I were to kill someone, I may face the death penalty. Therefore, even if I had violent tendancies and wanted to murder someone common sense would dictate that I would die. If the average killer isn't smart enough to figure that out, then he or she needs to put out of our misery.
I see. Well here in Michigan we do not have the death penalty and I have never killed anyone either. Of course most murders are spur of the moment things so it's not like in the heat of the moment someone's going to stop and say "Hey.....wait a minute here....isn't there a death penalty in this state? I better not, ok I'll let you live" Nonsense.
Sorry to see that your life experiences have made you so hardened and uncaring toward your fellow man. I hope you have no children. If you ever think about having any I urge you to do some volunteer work at a local headstart and get a bird's eye view of what life can be like for some of our most innocent, precious citizens. Who know, you may learn to give a shit. Here's hoping.
JustaThought,
:Isn't it true that a baby is really not a clean slate? Isn't a baby chock full of personality, ability, temperament, potential, etc. before he/she ever comes into the world? Aren't even babies different in these aspects of their being? If the only determinant is nurture, could all have been a Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Beethoven, Einstein, Jesus, Ghandi, or ... Hitler?
Actually if more children were raised in homes where they were nutured and encouraged, given time and attention instead of day care and lots of things, who knows? I would think so.
I don't have the case studies at my finger tips but I have read that indeed children basically are clean slates at birth. It is possible that there can be genetic problems that contribute to behavior but it is far less common than we would like to believe. I can tell you a source that is an easy read which cites many case studies is Hillary Clinton's It Takes A Villiage. No matter whqat your opinion is of here there is a lot of factual information in that book on this topic, I recommend it to anyone who is interested in learning about this.
Of course there are many who would dismiss this sort of thing as "phsycho-babble", often "real men" (a.k.a. assholes). It is something worth looking into.
I am done on this topic, take care all--
Julie
ianao

To all against the death penalty:
What would you suggest once over-crowding of jails became an issue? The newest jail could have been a health clinic for the homeless. Just curious.
Abaddon

SlayerLayer;
Personally, I think we should chop off the hands of those who would steal here too. And as for anyone commiting adultry, male or female, they should be buriedup to their head in the sand and have rocks thrown at them.
Yeah, well, I can't even take that seriously (although you might being 'funny') as it is so wack. If you're serious I think YOU should be locked up, as you're foaming at the mouth man.
Oh, British police do not carry guns outside of airports, or operations where they know they will need guns, and they have to be specially trained. But as we have sane gun control laws in Britain, we do not have scores of policemen being gunned down by criminals. And a violent death rate a fraction of the US.
You must have got the 'Stop! Or I will say Stop! again' thing off someone, as I've been using that as a little 'routine' to make American friends laugh for years, and if you come out with it word for word, I must have stolen it too!
As for the rest of Europe, well, yeah, the police carry guns, but as most of Europe has sane gun control laws they don't get to use them much.
I do understand how childhood will have long effects on us. I myself endured much as a child from a mother who was manic depressive and took out her anger on me. I'm not looking for pity, I just want to make it clear that being raised in an abusive home did not turn me into a killer. In my opinion, those who blame childhood, or traumatic experiences on their wrongdoings are cowards.
So, you're rabid love of the death pemalty has nothing to do with your unhappy childhood. Doesn't it seem that you have some anger that you are taking out on people? You've every right to that anger, but does it do any good taking it out like this?
Is it your opinion then that these violent criminals should be tortured and suffer inhumane consequences? Sodomy as an alternative? Personally, I would rather die than be raped over and over again.
So kill yourself if faced with that choice. You being uptight about your sexuality and prefering dying to munching some pillow is not an excuse for the death penalty.
I note you resort to this;
Awwwww...did da poor wittle muhdawah have a bad environment to grow up in? Poor wittle guy.
and this;
Quit hugging trees with your bleeding heart. Go save some whales or something.
... rather than going anywhere near the point I made that Americans are just in love with the death penalty 'cause they grew up with it, and don't know any better, where as if you didn't grow up with it you'd probably think it barbaric like over 80% of Europeans.
Is that because you are afraid to admit your opinions are shaped by the society you were raised in, because you want to avoid that arguement as you don't want to go there, or because you didn't get it?
Sorry to be blunt, but someone supporting killing people for showing callous disregard of human life while they show callous disregard of human life is so fucking hypocritical it always pisses me off.
I'm going to caress a pot-plant now; trees are not my thing...
Oh, your anger; is it directed at drug users too?
SlayerLayer

Abaddon,
Yes I do believe that if we cut off the hands of thieves, there would be a huge drop in theft. The adultry thing was a joke. Although I think lowly of anyone who does not remain faithful to his spouse.
Yes the "Stop! or I'll say stop again!". That was part of an old Robin Williams stand up routine. He was talking about how the British police do not carry guns.
People claim that having an abusive childhood turns us into criminals, I was simply stating that I did not turn intop a violent criminal.
I do not have a "rabid" love for the death penalty. I simply feel that it is just. I am not angry as you put it. The only anger I feel is towards those who would commit such atrocious crimes. I think that their victims would agree with me. It seems that all of you opposers have very little sympathy for the victims while you whine and cry for the killer. That makes me angry.
In reply to your suicide statement, I never said that I would kill myself. I said that I would prefer death. If someone said that as my punishment I would have to be sodimized everyday for the rest of my life or I could recieve a lethal injection, I would choose the latter.
The comment was made in referance to Julie saying that that would have been a more suitable punishment. I feel that it would be more inhumane than death.
I believe that your statement that we Americans feel just in the death penalty because we grew up with may be true. My feelings are based on what I perceive to be just. My perceptions of course have root in my upbringing, as do yours.
You speak of barbarism as if Europe has never seen it's share.
I simply feel that anyone that could possibly kill an innocent child. does not deserve to walk the same earth as you a I. I feel that they should in the same manner as they kill. If they rape and mutilate a child, then they should be raped and mutilated, as they are forced to look at pictures of their dead victim.
Glad to see your enjoying you pot-plant! Hug it pass it over
No, I do not feel the same torwards drug usage. In fact, When you do the reseacrh on why most drugs are even illegal in our country, you find that it is bullshit. The only reason LSD was made to be illegal was because our government saw a growing rebelion in youth. Today, if you get caught with LSD, you are charged with "Conspiricy to overthrow the government". Isn't that ridiculous? Cocaine was made illegal because in the 1800's they needed a scapegoat to blame rapes on. The African slaves were blamed for most of this. There are old newspaper articles that read "Drug Crazed Negroes Attack White Women"
It was made illegal because the negro slave enjoyed it's usage.
Opium on the other hand was because of racial hatred torwards the Chinese immigrants in New York city. The white man was enraged to see that white women would go to these opium dens. They believed that the chinese immagrants were suducing the women by using this "sex drug". Pretty lame huh?
lol, I hope you've enjoyed the history of drugs in America. I am a firm believer that if drugs were legal, there would be so much less crime. No more killing someone over a bad drug deal. No more police killing someone because of the illegal nature of drugs. Plus, if they were legal, they'd be a lot cheaper! Imagine walking into your local pharmacy to pick up a 10-strip of acid, or a 10-pack of ecstacy. Or walkin into a convenience store to pack a pack of mary jane.
Didn't mean to ramble on, but you asked.
Also, I enjoy your posts, and would like to say that I feel that we simply disagree on the subject of the death penalty. If I have been rude or disrespectful in any way to you, then I humbly apologize.

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

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