US calls off search for weapons of mass destruction

by WhyNow2000 193 Replies latest social current

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    Yeah ... and now read this if you didn't already :

    A War Crime or an Act of War?

    By Stephen C. Pelletiere The New York Times, Jan. 31, 2003

    MECHANICSBURG, Pa. - It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

    The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

    But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.

    I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

    This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

    And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

    The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

    These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran.

    http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=2434

    out of this poste from Will Penwell
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/63300/974958/post.ashx#974958

    What Robbar Said !!!
    If so, perhaps you will recall that we encouraged the Kurds to rebel. Then we betrayed them by leaving them to face Sadam alone--without a bit of help from us.

    SO ??? hum ???
    Saddam is a dictator and he is not the only one and certainly not the bigest and sneakiest one !!!

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome


    "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." Dick Cheney - 8/26/2002

    "We know for a fact that there are weapons there."Ari Fleischer - 1/9/2003

    "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." George W. Bush - 1/28/2003

    "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." George W. Bush - 3/17/2003

    "We simply cannot live in fear of a ruthless dictator, aggressor and terrorist such as Saddam Hussein, who possesses the world?s most deadly weapons." Bill Frist, Senate - 3/31/2003

    "I'm absolutely sure that there are weapons of mass destruction there and the evidence will be forthcoming. We're just getting it just now." Colin Powell - 5/4/2003

    "But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." George W. Bush - 5/30/2003

    "This wasn?t material I was making up, it came from the intelligence community" Colin Powell - 6/2/2003

    "I have reason, every reason, to believe that the intelligence that we were operating off was correct and that we will, in fact, find weapons or evidence of weapons" Donald Rumsfeld - 6/24/2003

    "I think the burden is on those people who think he didn't have weapons of mass destruction to tell the world where they are." Ari Fleischer - 7/9/2003

    "There is very little worse that an American president can do than to send American boys to die under false pretenses. Very little worse." George Paine 6/9/2003

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface



    Thank you PD !!! good resume ... it talks by itself

  • Simon
    Simon
    everyone knows saddam had wmd at one point

    That wasn't what was being claimed. We knew he had them (chemical weapons) at one point because 'we' still had the receipts.

    What was being claimed was that he still had them and was an imminent threat. It seems the people who believed that now look at wee bit silly IMO and are trying to change their claims to save some face.

    Changing goalposts ... is that the best you can do?

  • dubla
    dubla

    rob-

    i didnt miss it, i said exactly that: you commented on nuclear capablities only in that thread, not all wmd.

    six-

    and I feel bad about America even selling it to Iraq in the first place

    we were talking of the mustard gas used on the kurds, im sure you know that. ive debunked this popular tale of "america selling (the gas) to iraq" on another thread, and ill do it again here for your education:

    NEW YORK (CNN) -- Twelve years after the Persian Gulf War began, some American veterans of that conflict are finding new ammunition in their fight to find out who supplied Iraq chemicals that might have made them sick.

    More than 5,000 veterans are plaintiffs in a lawsuit that accuses companies of helping Iraqi President Saddam Hussein build his chemical warfare arsenal. The plaintiffs are among the tens of thousands who came down with "Gulf War Illness," a debilitating series of ailments that can include chronic fatigue, skin rashes, muscle joint pain, memory loss, and brain damage.

    Now, plaintiffs' attorneys have acquired, for the first time, what they believe is strong evidence of which companies supplied Iraq the chemicals that might have been used to produce mustard gas, sarin nerve gas and VX.

    The Iraqi list names 56 suppliers of chemicals and equipment to process them. A majority are based in Europe.
    Germany is home to the most major suppliers listed in Iraq's 1998 U.N. declaration. The Netherlands and Switzerland each are home to three companies on the list. France, Austria and the United States each are home to two. The declaration says Singapore was the largest exporter of chemical weapons precursors. Other countries home to alleged chemical exporters to Iraq include India, Egypt, Spain and Luxembourg, with one each.

    Neither American company listed -- Alcolac International, based in Baltimore, Maryland; and Al-Haddad Trading, based in Nashville, Tennessee -- are still in business.

    No one from Al-Haddad could be reached.

    Alcolac paid a fine in 1989 under U.S. law for one charge of exporting thiodiglycol, a chemical that could be used to make mustard gas, but that shipment was destined for another country.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/18/iraq.chemical.suit/

    so, if by "america selling" you meant two former companies based in the u.s. having no ties to the u.s. government, and indeed being fined by it for shipping illegal chemicals, then you are correct. is that what you meant?

    i assume by your post that you dont believe mustard gas warheads should be included in the term "weapons of mass destruction". just out of curiosity, whats your interpretation of that phrase? nuclear weapons only? you stated:

    The politics surrounding this war seems to have gotten people pretty sloppy with the term wmd however.

    this is not a new precedent. including mustard gas in this definition has nothing to do with getting "sloppy with the term".........the definition used by the u.n. way back in 1991, in resolution 687 (long before the "politics surrounding this war"), included "all chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents". here you go:

    http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

    check paragraphs 8 and 14. if you have an issue with the definition supplied by the u.n., thats one thing, but dont make the issue about "this war".

    simon-

    It seems the people who believed that now look at wee bit silly IMO and are trying to change their claims to save some face.

    i hope youre not including me in this statement (im guessing maybe you were, considering it was my quote you were responding to). i stated from the beginning, (let me know if i need to dig up some links for you), that my personal belief that saddam still had wmd came not from any recent "evidence", but solely from the fact that we knew he had them at one point, and he couldnt ever prove they were destroyed (an easy task). my personal "claims" havent changed a bit.

    aa

  • Simon
    Simon

    Well, according to the people charged with checking, the Iraqi government was cooperating and making an effort to show that they had. The US administration quickly put an end to this as it would mean their phoney excuse for war slipping away.

    Please make a rediculous claim like the US doesn't lie and make up reasons to start wars ...

  • dubla
    dubla

    simon-

    Well, according to the people charged with checking, the Iraqi government was cooperating and making an effort to show that they had.

    the iraqi government didnt need to "make an effort to show they had", they simply needed to provide proof. handing over records surely isnt a lengthy process (unless you believe they, um, misplaced them). as hans blix said:

    "mustard gas isnt marmalade, youre supposed to know what you did with it."

    i guess if you consider months of stalling before finally destroying a couple of missiles and leading inspectors to a hole in the ground with some warhead fragments "cooperation", then yes, they made every effort.

    aa

  • Simon
    Simon

    Well, going off what the head of the weapons inspectors has himself said and how he was treated by the president plus what has subsequently been found (or rather, not found) I think it's clear that they didn't have them and never had them since their capability was destroyed.

  • dubla
    dubla

    simon-

    I think it's clear that they didn't have them and never had them since their capability was destroyed.

    youre entitled to that opinion, and you could be right. if so, it was awfully silly of saddam to play games for as long as he did, wasnt it? simply baffling. maybe he was just growing tired of the murdering dictator role, and wanted his country to be taken by force. if that was the case, his wish was granted.

    aa

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    i didnt miss it, i said exactly that: you commented on nuclear capablities only in that thread, not all wmd

    Dubla, At the time, when the news was speaking of WMD they were discussing warheads, not chemical. The problem is that WMD keeps changing definition.

    As far as chemical WMD, everybody knew that Iraq had them because we had sold it to them. So, that point is moot. BTW, where is the proof of the chemical weapons? For that matter, any sort of WMD?

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