Good Guys VS Bad Guys: Facts Nobody Wants to KNow

by TerryWalstrom 143 Replies latest jw friends

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  LoveUniHateExams

  Britain and America detain and torture people in the Middle East, Africa and Guantanamo bay, rather than at home - various MENA countries are working with the West to combat terrorism. The security services of these countries are also involved in detaining and torturing suspects.

  They outlaw slavery at home but source products from countries where workers are slaves in all but name - correct the West outlawed slavery many years ago whereas other countries and cultures sadly still have it. You cannot blame the West for this. Plus, we have the option of fairtrade products, etc.

  The repression and suffering of a capitalist system are just as real, but are more effectively kept out of sight - let's get one thing straight: you, me and many others are not repressed by or suffering under a capitalist system. Some people are feeling the bad side of capitalism but at least we have the means to iron out these wrinkles.

  Stalin ordered the deaths of those around him - Stalin was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of his own people. Traitors were shot, millions of ordinary people were put in work camps. Nothing in the West compares to Stalin.

  The president orders the deaths of strangers across the world by drone. One we call barbarism, the other we call defending civilisation - this is because the West is at war with Islamist groups. There weren't many drone strikes before 9/11.
  
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  Ok...everyone is a bad guy. Every nation is run by bad guys....some worse than others. But that doesn't mean that bad guys or nations do not have the right and responsibility to protect themselves against agression with the sword.
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  TD

  Stalinism wasn't that different to what the USA and Britain have done and there is moral equivalence here despite what TD and others may say.

  Seriously? What examples even remotely comparable to the horrors of Sukhanovka can you cite?

  Stalin killed many times more people than Hitler during his purges. Millions upon millions upon millions.

  He wasn't at war. These were his own citizens, who because of their ethnicity or opinions were deemed undesirable.
  
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  humbled

  Maybe this is useful for those discussing moral equivalence:

  http://seansrussiablog.org/2013/05/11/us-prison-industrial-complex-versus-the-stalinist-gulag/
  
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  TD

  That's an excellent illustration of the fallacy of moral equivalence.
  
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  slimboyfat

  TD have you heard of operation legacy?

  When the British found that India had a textile industry to rival its own their solution was simple and effective. They cut off their fingers off. This set the tone. Millions died of avoidable starvation. The British pioneered concentration camps. Some of this is now well known. But really we don’t know half of it, due to operation legacy.
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  humbled

  TD-
  That's an excellent illustration of the fallacy of moral equivalence.

  Of course it is. I am glad you read it.

  What does it take for you and cofty to hear what l have said: l do not say they are equal.

  I don’t live in Russia. What concerns me is what is going on here in my country. I already know thatthe Mafia in the US is soft compared to the Russian mob. But which ones would l like to come after me? Neither. Both are bad.

  I am in no position to ignore the political corruption in this country. This is not an academic discussion for me.

  Mark my words: when the effects of corruption finally become heavy enough in any land the state cannot hold. People cannot rustle out a living when the leaders are not connecting the dots on what is causing massive fails among the working poor— I repeat—the working poor.

  Btw- the data collection on unemployment in the US never includes the prison count. The US as you note in the link above holds 25% of the world prison population and is only 5% of the population in the world. Great way to dispose of leftovers is prison. Constitutionally we allow slave labor in prison. Wicked brew for the big corporations to hold in their hands.

  I am glad to see this discussion staying afloat.
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  humbled

  SBF—interesting reading about Operation Legacy—sounds like the WTBTS scrubbing old incriminating literature.

  There are many venerable institutions that cover up the record of their abuses. It is wrong.

  Our democracies can survive the evidence of their wrongdoing- they will not survive the lies. Denying they have done wrong will kill them.
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  TD

  TD have you heard of operation legacy?

  I have.

  It would be foolish to claim that because a government respects human rights today, they always have. -Or even that they will tomorrow.

  I still don't agree with that idea that, "good" and "bad" are definitions manufactured purely by the winner. --Especially when there are so many examples of pure evil to illustrate the difference.
  
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  LoveUniHateExams

  I already know that the Mafia in the US is soft compared to the Russian mob. But which ones would l like to come after me? Neither. Both are bad - why would the US mafia come after you?

  You yanks, like us Pommie b*****ds (Limeys), have lots of freedoms.

  Most migrants would give their eye teeth to live under Western capitalism.

  You can vote for whomever you want, you can call Trump a dick, you can drive a car, you can go to whichever university you want (as long as you meet the selection criteria), you have a free press, you can choose your own career, you can apply for whichever job you want, ...
  

  Soviet citizens didn't have all these freedoms, they just had to survive the regime.

  Comparing the US government's sins to the blood-stained Soviet Union is ridiculous.