Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave? (page 8)

scholar

Linda14

You ask some good questions that are easily answered. I am away at the moment but will return next Tuesday so will get to your nifty questions at that time.

scholar JW

scholar

Linda 14

In the interim, I will make a brief comment on your first question.

Luke 21:

However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled"

From that context, how does Jerusalem come to represent seat of davidic line of rulers? Is the context not clearly referring to literal Jerusalem?

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Luke 21:24 contains three major elements that require careful exegesis:

1. Jerusalem - typical or antitypical used by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse

2. What does the word 'trampled on' mean and how and when does it apply?

3. What then is the significance of 'appointed times of the nations' how and when does this apply?

Food for thought until next week.

scholar JW

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar,

If my opinion is unsatisfactory then...

You didn't give me your opinion as to whether or not Jehovah Witnesses would baptize such Christians. You only gave your opinion on the likelihood of this happening.

I want to know if, in your opinion, your organization would baptize Christians who don't believe in 1914, 1918 and 1919? Yes or no.... and why or why not, will do.

BruceX

List of major WT revisions copied from https://beroeans.net/2022/11/26/a-bible-student-writes-to-her-jw-teacher/

(a) November 1881 – The slave is a class of individuals and refers to all anointed Bible students, Zions Watch Tower October and November 1881.

(b) December 1896 – The slave is one individual and refers solely to Charles Taze Russell.

(c) February 1927 – The slave refers to an individual and two distinct classes Jesus Christ alone, Jesus Christ and anointed Bible students.

(d) August 1950 – The slave refers to anointed Jehovah’s witnesses who make up the 144,000.

(e) December 1951 – The slave is anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses who make up 144,000 and is led by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

(f) November 1956 – The slave is anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses under the direction and authority of the Governing Body of the Watch Tower Bible and Track Society.

(g) June 2009 – The slave refers only to the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

(h) July 2013 – It is clearly defined that the slave is the Governing Body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses only. This occurred after the large lawsuit in Australia when over 1000 child sex abuse cases, which prohibited suing the organization.

I found a good explanation of the faithful and discreet slave at https://beroeans.net/2020/05/15/examining-matthew-24-part-12-the-faithful-and-discreet-slave/

scholar

Vanderhoven7

I want to know if, in your opinion, your organization would baptize Christians who don't believe in 1914, 1918 and 1919? Yes or no.... and why or why not, will do.

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My opinion is that such a baptismal candidate certainly in the case of 1914 would not be eligible as a candidate for Christian baptism for the reason that 1914 is a more rigorous Bible teaching being exegetically based whereas 1918 and 1919 are based more on eisegesis.

scholar JW

Vanderhoven7

@ Scholar.

Thank you for clarity.

My take is that all three dates are based on eisegesis and that Jehovah's Witnesses would not baptize anyone who does not tow the line completely. Why baptize someone who you would later disfellowship for expressing disagreement on any officially marked dates or doctrines?

Without 1914 Jesus Christ's invisible presence and enthronment remain undetermined and undeterminable.

Without 1918 all the churches are still approved temples of God as they were before 1918. So the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses no longe can claim the status of being the one true religion.

Without 1919 the men taking the lead in Warwick are not the Faithful Slave they are claiming to be and therefore do not have God-given authority and mandate to channel God's truth to mankind and then, of course, the entire house of cards collapses.

So, my take is that to be baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness all three extra-biblical dates and the invisible events associated with them would have to be believed.

Now none of these dates were criteria for Christian baptism before the twentieth century...so why is believing in these dates so critical now if one can be a true Christian while rejecting all three?

And if one is a true Christian without faith in 1914, 1918 and 1919, then it is not only Jehovah's Witnesses that have a scriptural hope of surviving Armageddon after all.

scholar

Vanderhoven7

My take is that all three dates are based on eisegesis and that Jehovah's Witnesses would not baptize anyone who does not tow the line completely. Why baptize someone who you would later disfellowship for expressing disagreement on any officially marked dates or doctrines?

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Absolute Bunkum! The date 1914 CE is based on solid exegesis whereas 1918 and 1919 are based on careful eisegesis all three main prophetic dates form an eschatological triennium.

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Now none of these dates were criteria for Christian baptism before the twentieth century...so why is believing in these dates so critical now if one can be a true Christian while rejecting all three?

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True, it was not until the latter part of the 19th century and the early part of the next century that the 'Revealer of Secrets', Jehovah God revealed the understanding and timing of such events in association with the Kingdom of God and the birth of the new nation in the context of Eschatology and its inauguration. Thus true Christians are now properly identified in relation to the fulfillment of God's purpose respecting HIs True Church- a modern eschatological Church furthering the interests of that Kingdom from 1914 CE and carrying out the Master's command to make preach, teach and make disciples along with Christian baptism.

scholar JW

Vanderhoven7

@Scholar

The date 1914 CE is based on solid exegesis.

Solid exegesis would exclude assumptions and speculation and easily convince Bible Scholars of the exegetical soundness of Watchtower methodology and conclusions.

How many non-JW Bible scholars do you know that are convinced from the scriptures that Christ's parousia occurred in October 1914?

Can you run the solid exegesis by me so I can see for myself that 1914 is not established by absolute Bunkum eisegesis.?

scholar

Vanderhoven7

Solid exegesis would exclude assumptions and speculation and easily convince Bible Scholars of the exegetical soundness of Watchtower methodology and conclusions

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Absolutely so many beginning Bible Students find that is most certainly true as they study WT publications along with their copy of the Bible.

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How many non-JW Bible scholars do you know that are convinced from the scriptures that Christ's parousia occurred in October 1914?

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Rolf Furuli would now be considered to be in such a camp.

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Can you run the solid exegesis by me so I can see for myself that 1914 is not established by absolute Bunkum eisegesis.?

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No problem. You need to focus on Daniel 4 and Luke 21 for both discuss the Gentile Times or the 'appointed times of the nations.

Next, you could use the WT Index for further information.

Further, you could consult various Bible commentaries to evaluate your conclusions.

If you need further assistance then scholar is available to help for scholar likes to help the 'litt;e people or ones'.

scholar JW

Ding

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered by Carl Olaf Jonsson demolishes the 607 BCE date for the fall of Jerusalem and with it the 1914 calculations.

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

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