Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman 349 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Fisherman

  The 70 years of serving Babylon were over before they left Babylon

  That is how you like to see it but you refuse to factor in the land laying desolate until it was inhabited again and this did not happen as soon as Babylon fell to the Medes but at the time the Jews set foot on eretz Israel ending the desolation prophecy. There is no historical evidence to prove when this exactly happened. We JW like to believe 537 for the reasons I explained in my previous post. JW have proclaimed publicly that their interpretation is subject to error not claiming to be inspired prophets.
  
  
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  peacefulpete

  It's all important to remember the nature of "prophetic" works. They were poetic, creative and hyperbolical. A motif like "70 years" was freely utilized without contradiction. When 2 or 3 writers contradict as to the starting and ending terminuses it likely because they understood the "70" to be flexible. I see here arguments for one roughly 70 years to start here and passionate rebuttals of a different starting and ending date. I've tried to show the debate is pointless, there is no way to settle what is not actually a disagreement. The evidence strongly suggests the motif of 70 to be a prophetic trope for a long time, a lifetime.

  On a similar vein, the notions of horrible abuse and deprivations in exile are literary, Jeremiah 29 describes their lives as pretty good. And the Jews were to pray for the prosperity of Babylon.

  5 “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6 Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7 Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”

  The "desolate" land is again a literary creation reflecting angst about homesickness more than reality. The land continued to be farmed and trade continued to go on as it had before.
  
  
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  Fisherman

  The "desolate" land is again a literary creation reflecting angst about homesickness more than reality.

  Spoken divinely and not poetically.
  
  

  12 So the angel of Jehovah said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?”

  11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’
  
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  peacefulpete

  You have quoted two prophets who used the 70 motif differently.

  Zechariah dating his vision of an angelic horseman to about 520BCE has no problem saying "these 70 years" implying a period not yet complete.

  Jeremiah on the other hand uses 70 to describe a period of Babylonian hegemony over the nations. (ending about 539-40BCE)

  It is obvious these two authors saw the 70 as a flexible motif.
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  BruceX

  Daniel 9:1,7 shows that the land including Jerusalem was inhabited by Jews before the exiled Jews returned from exile and set foot on the land.
  
  Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Da·riʹus the son of A·has·u·eʹrus—a descendant of the Medes who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chal·deʹans
  Daniel 9:7
  7 To you, O Jehovah, belongs righteousness, but to us belongs shame as is the case today, to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and all Israel, those nearby and far away, in all the lands to which you dispersed them because they acted unfaithfully toward you.

  The land was not without inhabitants for 70 years. Now what does desolation exactly mean? That's a different topic.
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  peacefulpete

  Nice point, the 2nd century BC author of Daniel understood the land of Judah to have been inhabited. He also found a creative new use for the 70 year motif as we know.
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  Fisherman

  70 motif

  Drivel red herring sophistry to confuse an unsure audience . Both scriptures are referring to the 70 year captivity of Judah in Babylon.

  Reminds me of a discussion I had with a Jewish man that insisted king David did not commit adultery with Bathsheba because she was divorced with him at the time based on a Talmudic interpretation of a woman married to a soldier in battle. Intentional utter gibberish. Believe as you wish. I’ve nothing more to add than to repeat that JW interpretation is at the very least plausible and more. Have a good day.
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  Red herring. It is uncontested that there was an exile (the most significant one in early 597bce followed by the one at the time of Jerusalem’s destruction in 587bce).

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  Hardly a red herring. The subject of the Jewish Exile is uncontested by scholars especiallt Jewish scholars but remains unknown amongst WT critics and Carl Jonsson who makes no or little mention of this most vital historical period of 70 Years.

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  That is not at all the prevailing view, including among Jewish scholars. It is a theological assertion only, and one that is not supported by what the Bible actually says.

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  Indeed it is for there is no other exilic period in jewish history than that pertaining to the Babylonian Exile of 70 years period./ Just do some further reading and rersearch.

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  irrelevant ad hominem.

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  This is just reflects your pitiful ignorance- hiding from the facts .

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  Liar. Neither Jonsson nor anyone else says there ‘was no exile’. All relevant sources acknowledge the main exile in early 597bce and the later deportation in 587bce.

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  Prove me wrong. Show me where in his book where he discusses the subject of the Jewish Exile for it is not even discussed as a heading in his Subject Index where it should occur.

  scholar JW
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
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  Jeffro

  I've already shown you to be a liar. You may go now.
  
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  Jeffro

  'scholar':

  Prove me wrong. Show me where in his book where he discusses the subject of the Jewish Exile for it is not even discussed as a heading in his Subject Index where it should occur.

  It is, of course, a lie that Jonsson doesn't acknowledge the exile. Both the main exile in 597 BCE and the exile at the time of Jerusalem's destruction in 587 BCE (e.g., page 222, footnote 37) are mentioned throughout, but since the 70 years was not a period of exile, it isn't necessary for Jonsson to discuss the exile as the focus of his book.

  Now, the lying 'scholar' probably knows full well that Jonsson does indeed repeatedly refer to the exile, and could be naively thinking that because I said several years ago that I hadn't read Jonsson's book, that I should therefore not know what is in it. Thinking I couldn't have read the book since then would obviously be quite daft.