The "Tree" of WHAT?

by Farkel 103 Replies latest jw friends

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    : God actively punished Adam, banning him from the Garden and from the tree of life,

    The Nobel Prize awards committee has not given me the Nobel Prize in Physics. Are they punishing me by not giving me something I have not earned and do not deserve? I don't think so.

    : making the ground difficult for him to cultivate, making all his days back-breaking and unpleasant.

    You refer to Gen. 3:16-19. There God told Adam and Eve what life would be like for them outside of the Garden of Eden which they proved by their actions they did not deserve to live in. God did not make the ground difficult to cultivate outside of Eden. That was its natural condition. God did not make life difficult for Adam. That is how life naturally is. Adam and Eve had been temporarily given much more than they deserved, in order to illustrate the good things God has in store for all who choose to serve Him.

    : He made childbearing painful and difficult for Eve and for women ever since.

    No, God only predicted that Eve's pains to come, those she would experience in child bearing, would be greater than any pain she had yet felt. God was not saying He would increase her child bearing pains. For she had no child bearing pains previously. God was only using child bearing pain as an example of the many difficulties Adam and Eve would experience in this world.

    : He punished children and grandchildren for the sins of their parents and grandparents. Today, we are "blessed" with disease and sickness, which, according to most Christians, is the result of the "sinful nature" you say he lovingly gave us.

    You refer to the doctrine of "the fall of mankind." This doctrine is based on what I believe is a misunderstanding of the apostle Paul's words in Romans 5:12-20 and 1Corinthians 15:21,22. Romans tells us that "sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin." And that "many died by the trespass of one man," "death reigned through that one man" and "as a result of one trespass was condemnation for all men." 1Corinthians 15:21,22 repeats this same thought by saying that "death came through a man" and "in Adam all die."

    With these verses in mind, many feel that these verses clearly indicate that all people inherit a "fallen" nature from Adam. And they say that it is this "fallen" nature inherited by us because of Adam's disobedience that brings upon us God's condemnation of death. They maintain that these verses prove that human beings were not "sinful" creatures until after Adam's spiritual, physical and genetic natures were somehow radically changed at the time he disobeyed God in Eden. Then, they say, when Adam fathered children after his nature had been corrupted, his children and all their descendants inherited Adam's "corrupted," "fallen," "sinful" nature.

    However, I contend this doctrine of "The Fall" of mankind must be an incorrect understanding of Scripture because it contradicts several clear teachings of the Bible.

    For instance, though the Bible tells us God does not hold children responsible for the sins of their parents (Deuteronomy 24:16; 2Kings 14:6; Ezekiel 18:20), the doctrine of "The Fall" of mankind says that all who have not accepted Christ as their Lord will be eternally condemned by God because of something Adam did.

    Some may argue this point, reminding us that God has taken the lives of "innocent" children along with their "guilty" parents when executing a judgment in the past. However, those Divine judgments were not eternal judgments. For Jesus Himself told us that everyone who lost their lives in such past judgments by God will receive a resurrection from the dead. And He told us that they will then all be judged as individuals, and not by their parents past behavior. (Matthew 11:20-24; John 5:28,29)

    The Bible also clearly tells us that God will hold each one of us responsible for his or her own unrighteousness, not for Adam's. (Romans 14:10-12, 2Corinthians 5:10)

    And the Scriptures say that we all need the forgiveness God offers us through Jesus Christ, because we have all personally "sinned" and have all personally "fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

    The doctrine of "The Fall" must also be an incorrect understanding of Scripture because it is in conflict with proven science. The science of genetics has determined that information coded within the nucleotide sequences of human RNA and DNA is fully responsible for determining what characteristics will be inherited by a couple's children. And this branch of science has proven conclusively that a human being's genetic code cannot be altered by actions as ordinary as those performed by Adam in the garden of Eden.

    I do not believe the Bible teaches that mankind "fell." Rather, I believe it tells us that God originally created the human race as free people. Free to do both right and wrong. In the exact same way we are free to do so today. Unfortunately we often choose to do what is wrong rather than what is right. God, however, cannot do wrong. For God is "Incorruptible." (Romans 1:23) So, because we can and often do behave unrighteously, and because God cannot and never does behave unrighteously, we are less righteous than God. And, because "all unrighteousness is sin" we are all born "sinful". (1John 5:17; Psalms 51:5)

    Being able to do wrong, Adam was, from his very beginning, also less righteous than God. And he later proved his "sinful" condition by his behavior. Because Adam in paradise could not manage to obey one simple command from God, he clearly demonstrated that he and the entire human race, including those who had lived before him and those who would live after him, were far less righteous than God.

    So, with these things in mind, Paul accurately referred to Adam when he wrote, "By one man's disobedience many were constituted sinners." (Romans 5:19, Amplified Bible) This is true because Adam's disobedience demonstrated that the entire human race was not only capable of doing wrong but incapable of not doing wrong. So, after Adam clearly showed himself to be unrighteous in a demonstration God arranged to for that purpose, God had good reason to condemn the entire human race as being undeserving of eternal life.

    I believe those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" also basically misunderstand the events which transpired in Eden. The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life." (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from eating from "the tree of life."

    Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to eat from "the tree of life" they would have lived forever. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us.

    Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life."

    Of course, that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ. For, as we have seen, God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

    I see no other way to understand the Bible's story of Adam and Eve. And the traditional concept of "The Fall," I am convinced, is in conflict with several clear teachings of Scripture, proven science and a natural reading of the events which took place in the Garden of Eden.

  • thinker
    thinker

    A simple correction:
    Farkel asked, "in the East of what...?"
    Aguest replied that this was a mistranslation unique to JW's.

    WRONG!
    Look up any map from the Middle Ages and you will find a flat earth, (either circular or rectangular). Located in the east corner of the earth you will often find EDEN! Many religious men actually went out looking for this place. The total area of the earth was very small in these maps. Some of our language today reflects this erroneous view of the earth, for example the Mediterreanean Sea means literally "the sea in the middle of the earth" Medi=middle, terra=earth. This false view of the earth resulted from people faithfully following the bible and not questioning it.

    Keep questioning Farkel.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    And yet, several THOUSAND years before, the earth was known to Job as a circle. Round. And the men of the Middle Ages... what is THEIR reputation regarding the 'spread' of 'christianity'? Can you spell 'C-R-U-S-A-D-E-S'? How about 'I-N-Q-U-I-S-I-T-I-O-N'? Yes, those folks were ALWAYS right. Right?

    I stand by my assertion.

    Peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO

    Achristian

    read all of it

    understood none of it

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes." (Matt. 13:15)

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO

    "this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes." (Matt. 13:15)

    no, it just didn't make any sense. Mainly because i think your fundamental premise is wrong. That being that you seem to be saying that Adam and Eve were doomed to eat from the tree that God told them not to. As if they had no freedom to choose not to eat...as if they were created without freedom.

    you threw too many terms around like good, and evil ,and freedom, and love without any real definition of what they mean. That made it confusing to me too. They are big words that probably need a little more defining.

    And you drew a real long bow when you tried to tell us God didn't punish adam and eve.

    As far as me being calloused...guess that would make me a bible basher huh! And we all know dem kinda people who dont believe cannot possibly be good people. Of course I know thats baloney!

    seriously, i wouldn't have written anything in reply like i did above, because usually the stuff you write makes sense...is sort of logical. Even though I feel you make alot of assumptions in your arguments you still make logical sense....but dude, this above stuff really spaced me out. After I read it i didn't know up from down, felt like i just read one of biblemans posts.

  • Derrick
    Derrick
    If that’s true, then God is in a “place” that has three dimensions.

    Actually, He is in a place that has unlimited dimensions. WE... are limited to three... for now.

    Hello, Shelby. This raises some interesting paradoxes. According to the laws of physics on multidimensional spacetime there exists "parallel universes" containing every possible pathway for events. In universe 1 in which we exist now, for example, events transpired on Earth historically exactly as recorded in Genesis. In universe 2 where we simultaneously exist according to physicists, events transpired in Eden differently, with Adam and Eve obeying God, refusing to listen to Satan, and Satan getting destroyed. In universe 3 where we also simultaneously exist according to physicists, Satan thinks through his actions and decides it unwise to rebel. In all the infinite permutations of these timelines there exists for lack of a better term an 'omnipotent' God simultaneously observing and responding to events moving forward in time as they unfold.

    I have been involved in extremely detailed and lengthy discussions on these very issues. Someone suggested in one of those discussions that in the final omega, when all possibilities have been played out, God has the power to decide which parallel universes are esconsed for all of eternity. Such as the dimension where not only do Adam and Eve make the right choice, but the angel that we know as "Satan" chose not to embrace evil. God's decisions in this regard result in a perfect and ideal reality. God causes all other universes with less than favorable results cease to exist. The one who proposed this argument in a discussion on the subject pointed out that such an outcome does not violate any presently known laws of physics on spacetime.

    Shelby, you said that God is in a place that has unlimited dimensions whereas we are limited to three at least for now. I was wondering if my remarks in this post based on a recent discussion with friends on the paradoxes of present spacetime theories by physicists, from Einstein to Hawking to Penrose and other scientific geniuses, have given you a glimpse into the depths of your comment that you were unprepared to consider? My belief is that the truth is out there, and that truth is not neatly packaged into the human paradigm of reasoning.

    It would be fascinating to hear your response.

    Derrick

    To see a World in a Grain of Sand
    And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
    And Eternity in an hour.

    -- William Blake (Auguries of Innocence)

  • thinker
    thinker

    Aguest,
    Don't let the facts get in your way!
    My kid daughter can tell you the difference between a CIRCLE and a SPHERE. I live on a sphere.
    Here's your world:
    (from the 7th century)

    Read all about it.
    http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/205mono.html

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    : "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes." (Matt. 13:15)

    Yeah, that's what generally happens to people around windbags.

    Farkel

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest Rick... peace to you!

    My understanding of the 'dimensions' is not that there are different scenarios, but that there are different... shall we say... or 'kingdoms'... or... ummmm... 'lands', yes, lands. No, that's not quite right, either.

    For example, in 'lowest' dimension there is the 'pit' of the abyss. The abyss itself is a kingdom, with a king, Abaddon. The 'highest' dimension... is the kingdom of God, with JAH as its king and my Lord, His Son, His heir. The spirirs of those who have died and who do not 'belong' to the Christ are in the 'world' of the dead, a dimension not as low as the PIT of abyss (where certain spirit beings are 'confined'), but 'lower' than this one that we exist in. This one is only just above that one, and there are MANY... higher than this, but not as high as that where God's exists in reality.

    Spirit beings can pass from dimension... to dimension, only going as 'low' as this one on their own, and to the pit of the abyss if 'sent' there by God. They can only go as HIGH as permitted by God, including before His throne, if permitted. Many of them are/were also 'rulers'... or kings/princes... in such dimensions. We, however, are 'bound' to this dimension by the flesh we inherited from Adam. However, by means of holy spirit, we can, to some degree, enter higher dimensions, where flesh... with its blood... cannot enter. But we must do so... 'in the spirit'... as did the Apostle John.

    That is my understanding of the matter, as I have heard it from my Lord, the Son of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. I have 'been' to many dimensions by means of spirit, other than the one in which we reside, including the world of the dead, the temple 'courtyard of the priests', a spirit... ummmm... 'land' (actually, two different ones) and before the ark of the covenant and my Father's throne, the latter directly by means of my Lord's introduction of me to enter therein. Well, actually they were all by means of my Lord's introduction, for it was he that took me to all places.

    But I have not seen or heard anything that suggests different scenarios being played out. What I HAVE heard and seen is that this dimension in which we exist is a 'delayed' existence: you know, like live television - the event takes place and there is a 2-second delay? It is because of this 'delay' that my Father knows the outcome... although I think it is WAY more than 2-seconds. That is why Ecclesiastes says that that which is NOW... came out of that which existed BEFORE it... and 'there is nothing NEW under the sun'.

    Anyway, dear Rick... that is what I have 'heard'... and seen... and now share with you.

    Uh, Thinker... okay... 'circle'... 'sphere'. How about ROUND... versus FLAT?

    Peace to you both!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

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