The "Tree" of WHAT?

by Farkel 103 Replies latest jw friends

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  THE GLADIATOR

  Rex,
  You have been on the web for too long - your dog biscuits are going soft.
  You are one plank short of a kennel and a howl short of the moon.
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  Rex B13

  I wasn't talking to you, Alan.
  Rex
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  Siddhashunyata

  Good and Evil are concepts. When conceptualization ceases does not life have a different quality? See for yourself.
• 

  aChristian

  The only way the story of Adam and Eve makes sense is to understand that God not only knew how things were going to end up in Eden, but that He deliberately set the whole thing up to make a point. What point? This one. If Adam in paradise, without a problem in the world, could not manage to obey one simple command from God, what chance does any human being have of living their entire trouble-plagued life without sinning either in word, thought or deed? No chance at all. That is the lesson that was illustrated in Eden. Human beings have a sinful nature. A nature which God gave us.

  Why did God give us a "sinful" nature? Because "God is love" He wanted to create people whom He could have a loving relationship with. But since true love can be neither forced nor programmed, in order to have loving relationships with us, God had to create us as free people. Free to choose to love God and His ways or to not love God and His ways. In other words, free to do both right and wrong, free to do both good and evil.

  Because we can do wrong and often do, and because God can't do wrong and never does, we are less righteous than God. And because we are, none of us deserve to live forever. That means all human beings have, in effect, from their births been condemned by God to die. Not because of anything Adam did, but because we ourselves all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

  Farkel is, in effect, asking. "But they didn't KNOW good from evil until after they ate from that tree. So how could God rightly condemn them for doing wrong when, at the time they did wrong, they didn't know right from wrong?"

  I believe Farkel, and many others, miss the meaning of "the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." First of all, Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good. For Adam and Eve knew God and God is good. Adam had not only talked with God himself, but he and his wife had both walked with God in the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:8) So, since Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good, their eating from "the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil" represented their also gaining a knowledge of evil.

  The accent should be placed on the word "and." As in "the knowledge of good AND evil." For God knew that, as free people, Adam and Eve could not possess any knowledge of evil. For simply having a knowledge of evil corrupts free people and makes them unworthy of eternal life. How so? Because when free people have a knowledge of evil they always, at least briefly, consider doing evil. And, even having evil thoughts for a brief fleeting moment makes people less righteous than God. Why is that? Because the Bible tells us that "In God there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5) So, since only people who are perfectly righteous deserve eternal life, free people who are automatically corrupted by a knowledge of evil are all unworthy of eternal life, and thus they all deserve to die.

  That, I believe, is what was represented by Adam being told that if he ate from the "tree of the knowledge of good AND bad" that he would die. For eternal life is something which God says only those who are perfectly righteous deserve. And free people can never be perfectly righteous. So free people can never be worthy of eternal life. They can only hope to receive it by God overlooking their unrighteousness. Fortunately for us, God has said that He will do just that, if we will only believe in our hearts that the death of His only Son Jesus Christ paid the price of all of our sins. When we do this God willingly overlooks all of our unrighteousness and views as being perfectly righteous, and thus fully worthy of eternal life.
  
  note that I didn't say Adam and Eve already knew "good vs. evil" or that they knew good and evil. I said they already knew good. For they already knew God, and "God is good."

  Farkel also refers to Adam and Eve being naked and being unaware of their condition until after they had disobeyed God.

  As I said, I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden was meant by God to illustrate that no human being, being less righteous than God, is deserving of eternal life. But it is also meant to illustrate that because we are always less righteous than God we are always in need of His forgiveness even when we have not recently committed any "sinful" act. I believe this lesson was illustrated by Adam and Eve being totally unaware of their nakedness before God until after they had committed a blatant act of disobedience. (Nakedness is a condition always portrayed as shameful in the scriptures.) Then, suddenly, after they had "sinned" they became aware of their nakedness and felt the need to "hide from God." Just as we often only become aware of our shameful condition before God after committing some "sinful act." And just as we then often feel ashamed of ourselves and try to hide from God by withdrawing from Him by not praying or by not attending Church, etc., until we finally get over our guilt. However, the fact is, we are no more worthy to stand in the presence of a perfect God before committing a "sinful act" than we are after doing so. Just as Adam and Eve were, in reality, just as naked before they disobeyed God as they were after doing so. They just didn't realize it.

  Some may say that this understanding means that God is not free, for he can do no wrong. In a way they are right. For God is not free in the way that we are. We are free in that we are able to either live our lives in the way that God wants us to live them, or to live our lives in a way that is contrary to God's wishes. God is not free in such a way. For He must, of course, always behave according to His wishes.

  I also believe that the "knowledge of evil" that Genesis refers to in the story of Adam and Eve refers to "knowing" something "in the biblical sense." This kind of "knowledge" is an "intimate knowledge." Such as in the Bible's statement that Joseph did not "know" Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus. (Matt. 1:25)

  That being the case, Adam and Eve had an intimate knowledge of good before they disobeyed God. For they personally knew God and they knew by experience all the good things being obedient to Him brought them. But until they disobeyed God they did not really "know" evil. For they had no intimate knowledge of evil. For such a "knowledge" would include having experienced the harmful effects of evil, a knowledge which Adam and Eve only acquired after they disobeyed God.
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  dedalus

  Why did God give us a "sinful" nature? Because "God is love" He wanted to create people whom He could have a loving relationship with.

  So why does God punish us for the sinful nature he lovingly gave us?

  Dedalus
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  aChristian

  : So why does God punish us for the sinful nature he lovingly gave us?

  He doesn't punish us. He gives us all life. Every day of life is a gift. He gives us all more gifts than we deserve. And he offers to give us all much, much more than we deserve, eternal life, if we will only believe in the way He has chosen to give it to us.

  God creates us as free people, allowing us to do both right and wrong. So He does not force anyone to do things "His way." Is that OK with you so far? Then He treats every one of us equally well, allowing His rain and sunshine to fall upon all of us, both those who choose to serve him and those who don't, allowing both good things and bad things to happen to all of us equally, both those who choose to serve Him and those who don't, all of our natural lives. Is that OK with you so far? Then He says, that since only those who are perfectly righteous deserve to live forever, He will overlook all of our unrighteousness and give us all eternal life, even though none of us deserve it. Is that OK with you so far? Then He says that He will do this if we will just believe in our hearts that He paid the price for all of our unrighteousness by allowing His only begotten Son to die in our place. Is that OK with you? Maybe not.

  This seems to be the part that is too much for many people. They say God should just give them eternal life and not ask anything of them. They say that God is asking too much of them when He says they must believe something in order to gain eternal life. To me this seems quite odd. Why? Because people are often willing to believe things to gain just a few years of life. But they are unwilling to believe something to gain eternal life.

  People often jump out of burning buildings because they are willing to believe the promises of complete strangers that they will catch them in a large blanket when they do. People on sinking ships often jump into icy cold seas because they are willing to believe the promises of complete strangers that they will immediately pull them out of those waters and into a nearby lifeboat. They don't complain that their rescuers are asking too much of them. They don't say that their rescuers should come and physically carry them out of those buildings and off of those ships. They don't say that their rescuers asked too much of them by requiring them to take a "leap of faith" to gain life. But people complain all the time that God asks too much of us by requiring us to take a similar "leap of faith" to gain eternal life.

  Go figure.
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  Faithful2Jah

  AC: I agree. God didn't punish Adam. He let him live out his entire natural life. He just did not reward him by letting him eat from the tree of life and then live forever.
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  dedalus

  He doesn't punish us. He gives us all life. Every day of life is a gift.

  He also gave us too many diseases to name, droughts and plagues and earthquakes and blizzards and mosquitoes and famines. Thanks, God!

  God didn't punish Adam. He let him live out his entire natural life. He just did not reward him by letting him eat from the tree of life and then live forever.

  God actively punished Adam, banning him from the Garden and from the tree of life, making the ground difficult for him to cultivate, making all his days back-breaking and unpleasant. He made childbearing painful and difficult for Eve and for women ever since. He punished children and grandchildren for the sins of their parents and grandparents. Today, we are "blessed" with disease and sickness, which, according to most Christians, is the result of the "sinful nature" you say he lovingly gave us.

  Have you guys even read the Bible?

  Dedalus
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  waiting

  Howdy Dedalus,

  He doesn't punish us. ac

  God didn't punish Adam. He let him live out his entire natural life. He just did not reward him by letting him eat from the tree of life and then live forever. - Faithful2Jah

  I agree with your explanations completely. I'm at work (obviously not working) and without my trusty NWT. But I remember that the explanation for women's birthpains was Eve's sin, also that women would always want men as companions (suposedly more than men wanted women). Why was Eve's to produce children in pain? She was the same woman she was in the Garden of Eden....and there would have been no pain there. What would have held the same woman back from having childbirth pain in the Garden of Eden, but upon leaving the Garden, now experience childbirth pain?

  The WTBTS once explained that God didn't bring Eve's pain to her - she received it when she became imperfect. Well, by taking away her perfection, God introduced her to pain for the rest of her life.

  Adam's life turned from naming animals in a garden, having companionship & sex, talking with God ........ to a God damned piece of dirt which grew thistles and thorns. There is no record of any disease of man or animal in the Garden of Eden. Only afterwards was disease introduced into the world. Why? The germs were there all the time. If the germs were held back from producing imperfection & disease.....what stopped holding them back?

  God. And he took his protection away. What's an easy way (albeit perhaps not politically correct) to punish someone? Take away the benefits you've given them - let them suffer. Teach them a lesson.

  Which I assume is the whole point of this non-real story....teach a lesson. Obey God.

  waiting
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  dedalus

  I agree, Waiting.

  The WTBTS once explained that God didn't bring Eve's pain to her - she received it when she became imperfect. Well, by taking away her perfection, God introduced her to pain for the rest of her life.

  What AChristian suggested is that God gave us a sinful natute because he loves us, and so we need to be sinful to choose to love him back. That's a bit different from what the WTBTS teaches, but it's still pretty dumb, since we're punished for having sinful natures whether we're good or not.

  Take away the benefits you've given them - let them suffer. Teach them a lesson.

  Yeah, reminds me of a quote from another thread, posted by Farkel:

  *** w54 1/15 57-62 Disciplining Children for Life ***
  27 You parents know what you must do. You children know what you must do. Jehovah knows what he will do. If we obey him, he will do things for us. If we disobey him, he will do things to us.

  Nice stuff.

  Dedalus