Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany (page 15)

Fisherman

DD,

I really enjoy your style and the way you say things. You have no idea how much you make me laugh and how much I laugh and have laughed in the past with your posts, the way you say things. I’m laughing now.

Sea Breeze

Churches are conducting an ecomenic service on Sun 5.p.m. at St. Petri Church in Hamburg.

Might be a good opportunity for xjw's to attend and explain how it is impossible to leave the JW's without getting shunned and losing family and friends.

Most people are only vaguely aware of the extent of the WT shunning policy.

StephaneLaliberte

The bible speaks of armageddon where a great deal of people will be destroyed for their wickedness. JWs understand this to mean that the majority of the human population, women, children, young, old, disabled or not, will be killed. After this world wide massacre, a thousand years will go by before there is a second and final massacre to rid humanity of evil, once and for all.

Based on this concept, the shooter felt that Hitler did a small gesture in that direction in trying to get rid of many who, according to JWs belief, would be killed by God at the end times.

People read about the shooter's beliefs and immediately recognize him as unhinged, insane. And yet, they do not question their own beliefs. How can you reconcile a loving and just God to the concept of Armageddon? The world saw and kept records of the monstrosity of the holocaust; the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Nazis. Why would you judge God any differently for doing something similar on a much greater scale? It's not logical, its.... insane.

Such belief is a stepping block upon which more radicalized beliefs can be built: "If it is God's will to do it eventually and everyone agrees with it, than I could do it now and I'd be doing God's will. Now or later, what's the difference?"

If the human race as a whole viewed the concept of God committing global genocide for what it is, unjust and evil, than radicals, like the shooter, might not be able to make a leap from "here" to "there" and justify horrible actions like he did.

TonusOH

I always understood it as: God gave us life, and He can restore it if we lose it, and we have no way to repay Him for a gift of such magnitude. Thus, He also has the right to take it back. That covered any scenario in which God killed (or ordered the death of, or allowed the death of) any person. I always found it troubling, because it seemed like we were looking for an easy way to explain why He killed (or allowed the killing of) so many people, including in circumstances where it seemed unfair or excessive. If there is no scenario where God's actions could be considered unfair or excessive, then we can dismiss those examples.

Journeyman

Why would you judge God any differently for doing something similar on a much greater scale?

The flaw in that reasoning is that humans are NOT God - not even close. If you believe that God is much greater, both in terms of power but also in understanding and ability to 'read' the heart, mind and motivation of people, then it's no comparison.

The problem with the people you mention - Nazis, 'radicalised' religious people, etc - is that they arrogantly elevate themselves to God's level (knowingly or unknowingly), thinking they have the RIGHT to take lives as they see fit. And in the case of those who think they are doing 'God's work' (such as that shooter, maybe), they compound the error by presuming to act 'for God'.

However, humans do not have the right to 'play God' in that way, precisely because we are just bags of water and meat, or 'mere grass that withers' etc, as the Bible puts it. We do not know what goes on in the mind and heart of another person so cannot judge them with total certainty, and we definitely cannot restore life to someone if we take it away in 'error'.

TonusOH put a finger on one crucial difference that entitles God to give - or remove - life: He made it, can remake it, and can give it back to whomever he chooses. He 'owns' the very concept of life - we do not.

Couple that with God being able to read the hearts and motivations of others, and to even foresee the inclination of people, (which no mere human can do with certainty) means that comparing God's right to kill with humans is comparing apples with oranges.

Such belief is a stepping block upon which more radicalized beliefs can be built: "If it is God's will to do it eventually and everyone agrees with it, than I could do it now and I'd be doing God's will. Now or later, what's the difference?"

That may be how such extremists think, but it should be obvious to everyone else how flawed that thinking is. It's not just about "now or later", it's about WHO does the killing (and why). Some extreme religions are more problematic with this because their 'holy' texts can be interpreted to appear to permit their members to do it (I'm thinking Islam, for example) but certainly for supposed Christians, it is clear from the NT that they should not be killing anyone themselves.

peacefulpete

Any belief system that claims to bring peace by killing everyone who disagrees is extremist.

I had a discussion with a visiting JW gal few years ago. She actually was using recent terror attack as a sign of the end. I asked her if she was aware that Isis believes they will bring peace and moral purity by their killing. She said yes.

How then can you see them as terrorists, I asked, don't you feel the same way?

She insisted the difference was God was doing the killing.

I asked if God asked you to do it with him, wouldn't you? According to the Bible God told his worshippers in the past to kill entire civilizations.

She paused.

So to worship the God of the Bible you must be willing to kill people.

There is no moral superiority to endorsing the killing of billions over doing the actual killing. The only difference is when Christianity spawned, the Romans had control.

Sea Breeze

So to worship the God of the Bible you must be willing to kill people.

Shouldn't evil be confronted? Fathers protecting their families, soldiers, police kill evil people all the time. Nothing new here.

Any judicial system that claims to bring peace by punishing the guilty is __________.

peacefulpete

So everyone outside your belief system is "evil" and "guilty" and should be "punished" with death? If you believe that, you are a dangerous extremist.

Extremists distort and misuse the natural human desire for peace by dehumanizing those outside a small group identity by using labels like evil and unworthy.

StephaneLaliberte

If you believe that God is much greater, both in terms of power but also in understanding and ability to 'read' the heart, mind and motivation of people, then it's no comparison.

If, by reading hearts, God comes to the conclusion that 90% of the human race is beyond redemption, than, there is an issue with statements such as "he created man as his image" and "that he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son for it."

Regardless, many view that God will destroy people that are not part of their religion, or do not believe this or that. If their view is correct, than God won't judge based on reading hearts and motivations, etc. He will just destroy groups of people based on some broad scoping criteria.

There is no justice in that, only global genocide.

Beth Sarim

In the Witnesses,,, I would definitely categorize their marginalizing of groups, dfing, no-blood and harsh 2 witness rule,,,,,,absolutely as extremist. There's no way around that or sugar - coating it.

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

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