Not a sympathizer

by Richard Oliver 130 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Richard Oliver

  Like I said earlier

  "I am not trying to get into a discussion or an argument about homosexuality and Witnesses."

  and

  "My point on this thread is that there are things that are opinion and everyone has the right to their opinion and can yell, scream and rail against Watchtower over how they feel or what is their opinion. But there are things that are just facts, and opinion cannot change facts, no matter how much they believe and feel that it is wrong or should be changed."

  Again my point was not to get into a discussion about homosexuality and Witnesses. The only reason I brought up that I as gay was that there was a question of if I actually had a problem with a Watchtower teaching. My problem has never been that I felt that as a whole or as official policy that Witnesses or Watchtower was homophobic. Like I said before, my personal definition of homophobia maybe different or the same as other people but it is my personal definition as a gay man. My problem with Witnesses is that I cannot have a husband and be a Witness. I know that is their right to choose who they accept as a member and who they do not. Do I wish that they would change it? I really wish they would, but I know that I am not going to hold my breath for it.

  The whole discussion was to show that there is a difference between facts and opinion. I have not seen a piece of proof that Watchtower calls gay people mentally ill in the last 15 years or so. Do I have proof that they call it abhorrent and a sin? There is plenty of proof of that. But they do not call it a mental condition anymore. Do I personally need a retraction of any previous statements, that if they did state that? I personally do not. May other gay people feel that they need that, that is certainly possible and that is up to them to make that decision.

  I have not diminished anyones personal feelings here that Watchtower did not hurt anyone here. What I said was there are some things that are actual facts, some that are anecdotal evidence and some that are just opinion. Should everything carry the same weight when indicting a whole group of people? I do not feel that way. Many people here believe the opposite. But no one can deny that there are real and substantial differences between those three things. At least for myself I place more weight on actual verifiable facts and not so much weight on the other two, when i read it coming from other people.

  
  
  
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  Richard Oliver

  Outlaw. So you are saying you can take two African American men and put them into the same situation and if one says that he felt racially prejudiced against and the other feels that he did not experience racial prejudice. You are going to call one of them a liar and believe the other one?
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  Richard Oliver

  oh sorry Outlaw. I don't want to put words in your mouth. So you would call one of those two men an idiot based on what you feel that they should have judged the situation to be for their own personal feelings.
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  Finkelstein

  I base it off of my experience as a gay witness at the time.

  Really so you were a practicing active homosexual while being a practicing active JWS ?
  

  The fact are JWS will accept a suspected gay person as long they aren't activity being homosexual.

  Once that is confirmed and that rumor is spread like wild fire, JWs will shun you like the plague.

  I have not seen a piece of proof that Watchtower calls gay people mentally ill in the last 15 years or so

  So that doesn't mean they don't hate gays, the gay people even if the are not DFed are usually treated by the rest of the male congregation as lower class people.
  
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  OUTLAW

  So you are saying you can take two African American men.....RO

  I didn't post anything about African American men..

  .............................................................
  

  You Have Worked Tirelessly..

  TO EARN THIS..

  
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  Richard Oliver

  Finkelstein. I said that i told people I was gay. Again that is my own personal experience. I am sure that people have experience with the opposite. But this is my own experience with Witnesses. I never felt a bit of prejudice by the people I told. I didn't tell everyone, but that was my choice. And beyond the people I told, at least as far as I know, no one else knew. I didn't have boyfriends at that time. But people didn't avoid hanging out with me alone, being around their families or other normal things.
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  OrphanCrow

  richard: So you are saying you can take two African American men and put them into the same situation and if one says that he felt racially prejudiced against and the other feels that he did not experience racial prejudice. You are going to call one of them a liar and believe the other one?

  I know you addressed this to Outlaw but...I think you are just being silly now.

  Let me give you another, similar situation. Instead of two black men, take two women who are in an abusive relationship and ask them the same question. Ask them if they think they are abused.

  I would bet money that at least one of them, if not both, would say, "What?? Who? me??? NO! I am not abused! No way!"

  Do you know what that phenomena is called? It is called Stockholm Syndrome. Look it up. It fits that abused woman situation, it fits the example you gave with the black men, and it fits YOU to a "T".

  Richard, you are displaying signs of experiencing Stockholm Syndrome.
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  Richard Oliver

  OK Outlaw. If you take two gay men, who never been witnesses at all in their life and in a scenario that is furthest thing away from witnesses. If you take two gay men put them in the same scenario and one says that he felt prejudice against and the other said he didn't. You would call one of them an idiot because of the way that he felt? Because you feel that they should feel wrong by the situation.

  By the way you understand what an analogy is right? An analogy or a hypothetical situation does not have to be exactly what is being talked about just with similar parameters.
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  OUTLAW

  OK Outlaw. If you take two gay men.....RO

  You just got a promotion..
  

  
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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein: Once that is confirmed and that rumor is spread like wild fire, JWs will shun you like the plague.

  Richard knows this. That is why he carefully selected which of his JW friends he was going to reveal himself to: " I didn't tell everyone, but that was my choice."

  Yes - your choice, Richard. You picked the safe ones. And why? Because you knew that the JWs are homophobic. You picked those who you thought would accept you and keep your secret.