Here are some facts, there's overwhelming evidence that there was no global flood 4480 years ago. Fact the Bible has in it several prophecies that didn't come true. I too like facts that's why I'm no longer a bible believer!
Not a sympathizer
Again OrphanCrow that is your opinion. I don't believe that the people who I told ever did that. The people I told never repeated it to anyone else. They never saw that as the defining thing about me. I don't have proof that they did what I said, but neither do I have proof or any suspicion that they did what you suggest. Again this is a very subjective thing, with little ways to prove one way or another.
My point on this thread is that there are things that are opinion and everyone has the right to their opinion and can yell, scream and rail against Watchtower over how they feel or what is their opinion. But there are things that are just facts, and opinion cannot change facts, no matter how much they believe and feel that it is wrong or should be changed.
Richard Oliver - I don't believe witnesses as a group are homophobic but certainly people inside of the religion are.
Let me disprove that by use of a simple syllogism.
1) All Jehovah's Witnesses (with the exception of those who pretend to be members so that they are not disfellowshipped) read, believe in, and obey whatever is written in the Watchtower publications.
2) The Watchtower has proven to be homophobic by describing homosexuality, on many occasions in their publications, as abhorrent, sexually perverse, sick, perverted, gruesome, violent, downright sadistic, obscene, worthy of death penalty, detestable, vile, and repulsive, and they have also compared homosexuality to child molestation, and mental disorder.
3) All Jehovah's Witnesses (with the exception of those who pretend to be members so that they are not disfellowshipped) are homophobic.
Watchtower 2012 Mar 15 p.31
Awake! 1997 Dec 8 pp.14-15
Awake! 1995 Feb 8 p.16
Awake! 1995 Feb 22 p.12,14
True Peace p.150
Awake! 1982 Jun 22 p.10
Awake! 1989 Jul 8 p.27
Watchtower 1979 Mar 15 pp.10,11
OrphanCrow - "He works so hard for the org and you wouldn't even know he is one of those homos! Ah, well...as long as he keeps serving Jehovah and doesn't make the org look bad by actually practicing his sexuality, we will smile and gave him credit!"
Yup. That is definitely true. I am 100% certain that some Jehovah's Witnesses have indeed reacted this way behind his back. I know several Jehovah's Witnesses who said, in a hypothetical tone since there was nobody homosexual in my congregation as they were smart enough to stay away, things similar to your remark in quotations. Those Witnesses that I know have said on several occasions that, if there were indeed a homosexual person in the congregation, he or she would only be accepted in the community of Jehovah's Witnesses so long as he or she abstains from homosexual acts.
Moreover, I know of several Witnesses who knew of two other Witnesses who were homosexual. (They were not in the congregation I attended.) These Witnesses were "encouraged" (read: forced) to go to two separate congregations for fear they would practise homosexual acts. They did relocate to different congregations, and one of them has even married a woman. In my opinion, either he is bisexual, or he is homosexual but pretends to be "cured." Either way, Jehovah's Witnesses in my city use the story of these two Witnesses as evidence that homosexual people can be "cured."
Have no doubt, Richard Oliver, that no matter what you think of them, they are not friendly towards homosexual people. They only pretend to be. As soon as you found a boyfriend while still being a member of the organisation, you would be ostracised and soon disfellowshipped. And if things went the other way—namely, if you found a wife for the sake of peace as the other Witness in my example did—you would be used as evidence that homosexual people can supposedly be "cured."
I am not trying to get into a discussion or an argument about homosexuality and Witnesses. No matter what you say, I won't feel that Witnesses as a whole are homophobic. Do I believe that they think that it is a sin and you can't be a witness in good standing and practicing homosexual activities? Yes, that is a pure fact.
Now for myself, as a gay man, my personal view of homophobia may be different than people on here. Everyone has their own definition of homophobia, either if they are gay or straight. I view homophobia as the verbal or physical assault of gay people because of their sexual desires. Actively working against the equal treatment of gay people in society, not in religion, but in society. Preventing them from achieving the same rights and privileges as straight people. So my view of it is, voting against or protesting gay marriage, the physical assault of gay people, hurling of gay slurs against gay people.
Never have I seen Witnesses, as a whole or even a majority of people, do anything that I would consider as homophobic. Do a lot of Witnesses not like gay people? Probably. But not liking gay people doesn't make them homophobic in my view. Again my view of homophobia is probably different from others. Some may view my definition as too lax while others view it as to strict. That is each persons opinion.
Have I heard bad things come out of Witnesses mouths about gay people? I have. In my experience is that a minority over a majority of the instances? In my experience it is. Have I been hurt by people's comments about gay people? Of course, even by some high-ranking leaders from Witnesses.
I also really don't like it when people bring up comments from Watchtower publications prior to about 1975, when it comes to gay people. It diminishes the reality that most of society viewed gay people in the same light. I even know that the DSM didn't take out Homosexuality from their diagnostic list of mental illnesses till about mid-1970s. I think when people use those old publications to claim that Watchtower is so homophobic, minimizes the fact that gay people struggled in society as a whole up to that point and even beyond that.
I don't believe that the people who I told ever did that.
The people I told never repeated it to anyone else.....RO
Jehovah`s Witnesses are the absolute worst gossipers..
Try keeping a secret in a Kingdom Hall, (unless it`s about a pedophile) it`s not going to happen..
Hi Richard, firstly I want to say that with many of your posts and arguments I really can see where you are coming from with your points about how you felt you have been treated as a gay person within the WTS and why you might have a different definition of the scope of homophobia within the WTS and I think this in itself could be the subject of an entire thread.
What does particularly interest me, however, is that (if I understand you correctly) you feel that no one you came out to in the WTS treated you any differently. I find this surprising and wondering who it is you came out to. If it was close family members who really loved you then I can understand it but even coming out to close friends would surely be a major risk?
You clearly would have had to assure people you were celibate and were putting your relationship with Jehovah above your physical needs. I really can't imagine that there would have been that many people for whom it would have been as casual a thing to accept as it would be for many people in the world.
I have never met an openly gay Witness. I have never know of anyone described as an "NPG" where there has not been some level of comedy or disgust attitudes attached to discussion about them. Whilst overt homophobia is perhaps a bit less common than it was there is still plenty of casual homophobia that is completely acceptable within regular conversation amongst Witnesses.
I would be very interested to hear a little more about the types of Witnesses that were completely accepting of you when you came out.
I had told Elders, COs and other people that I would rather not say. I told some family members and chose not to tell others. I told some people in my halls and chose not to tell others. In the gay community this is not all that uncommon. I have plenty of gay friends who never were witnesses or don't have religious family members, who they have never come out too. Coming out is a very personal and private matter for every gay person and they have to tell the people who they want and not tell the people they don't want to.
I have known openly gay witnesses, actually a number of them. They have had their struggles with feelings of self-worth and desires to leave the JWs. Some have left for a time, some have left for good, some have stayed. I know I left for a while went back and then left again. But issues with self-worth and self-hatred is a common struggle in the gay community, even for gay people who were not brought up religious.
Outlaw. That maybe so but I know for a fact that the people I had told I was gay in confidence were the only people who knew. At that time, people in the hall would talk to me about girls and other things that indicated that they had no idea that I was gay. Again, I am not saying that this is the same experience for everyone. I can only speak intelligently about my experience as a gay man who was a Witness.
Outlaw. That maybe so but I know for a fact that the people I had told I was gay in confidence were the only people who knew. At that time, people in the hall would talk to me about girls and other things that indicated that they had no idea that I was gay......RO
That`s your evidence?!..
If you really believe that,your incredibly naive.
I talk to a gay buddy about women,it`s all in normal conversation..
Then he tells me he`s in love with Anderson Cooper..LOL!!..
I would love to see a JW`s face..
If you told them you were in love with Anderson Cooper..
I`m friggin dying laughing here..LOL!!