Not a sympathizer (page 3)

Richard Oliver

It is human nature to look for facts and believe only facts that reinforces ones' own beliefs of what is happening in the world. This is not something new, but with the advent of technology where the barrier to distribute ones' beliefs is now virtually non-existent, this has allowed more people to express their feelings and ideas farther and wider than ever before. But there is a difference between facts and ones' opinions and ideas. I am not saying that someone's opinion is not valid because it is their opinion, but when someone expresses their opinion or idea as fact that is where the danger comes in.

I used the example of the pizza gate, people may whole heartedly believe that Clinton is the most evil person that is alive today, but that is a person's opinion not a fact.

In a previous post I highlighted a court case in Louisiana that showed that ministers and clergy are barred from reporting sexual abuse if the knowledge comes from a spiritual confession or counseling session. That is a fact that no matter how people slice it, is case law and has to be obeyed. Now people can disagree with the case law, they can feel that it is immoral and despicable and should be changed, but those are opinions. Opinions don't negate fact and cannot replace facts. Opinion can change laws, can change people's feelings and ideas, but opinion cannot change facts.

I was listening to NPR and they talked about how people believed that men's semen actually contained a little person inside of it, and this was thought by some of the most learned people in the world at that time. And that was the opinion of the people at that time, but does that mean that men's semen contained a little person inside of it because that is what people thought, of course not. New information was gained that told people that was the actual facts of the situation was. People could either accept the change in knowledge or not, but it did not negate what the actual facts are.

Someone here calls Witnesses homophobic, and I am not saying that person's view is not valid and their experiences are not what they have experienced. I know for myself I have experienced homophobic things from witnesses but I have also had boyfriends who has non-religious family members who are extremely homophobic. I don't believe witnesses as a group are homophobic but certainly people inside of the religion are.

OrphanCrow

First statement:

It is human nature to look for facts and believe only facts that reinforces ones' own beliefs of what is happening in the world.

Last statement:

I don't believe witnesses as a group are homophobic but certainly people inside of the religion are.

You confirmed your first statement with your last.

Finkelstein

I don't believe witnesses as a group are homophobic but certainly people inside of the religion are.

A nonsensical twist of logic

Of course JWS are homophobic, they think Gay people are bombastic sinners influenced by Satan to do what they are doing.

.......and you should know how much JWS are afraid of Satan and his wicked evil forces.

That's a fact by the way.

sparrowdown

Seriously RO have you not read the JW rules?

No LGBT people allowed into their special JW new system apparently they won't be allowed through security.

Richard Oliver

Yes orphan crow. I agree I stated my opinion. But I predicated my opinion by saying it is my opinion that I don't believe as a group witnesses are homophobic. I base it off of my experience as a gay witness at the time. I said other people's experiences were different. So there is no fact in that scenario because it is based on each individual experience. One person's experience cannot be replicated in the exact same way as another person.

Finklestein, I can only know what my experience as a gay witness was. I had told plenty of people I was gay and never was treated differently. Some may not have had the same experience as me, so by definition one cannot claim that as a whole they are homophobic. Does watchtower say that homosexuality is a sin, yes that is a fact. But do they say and promote the same policies that other religions and truly homophobic people express I personally don't feel that. Again could someone else disagree with me, yes, that is the the opinion of me and the opinion of them.

OrphanCrow

Richard, you seem like a fairly intelligent person.

But....it appears like your rational processes have been tipped a little sideways

Stick around and educate yourself with "facts" that come from more than one source. That way you can demonstrate that your intelligence is useful for more than just an egocentric view of the world

Richard Oliver

As my own opinion, I don't think that there are alot of organizations as a whole this is homophobic. I believe even the organizations that are classically thought as homophobic aren't wholely homophobic. I look at the Republican party where many lgbtq activists believe whole heartedly that the GOP is all homophobic. But there are gay Republicans who are staunch supporters of their party, but why do they support that supposedly homophobic organization. It is my belief that they see other things in that party that they agree with, and those other things in their view is much more important than the policies on lgtbq issues.

OrphanCrow

Excues me, Richard, but it appears like your definition of "homophobic" doesn't fall into the same parameters of what is generally accepted as being homophobic

You state that " I had told plenty of people I was gay and never was treated differently."

You absolutely were treated differently. You were treated differently than if you were heterosexual. You were denied the state of being a fully functioning adult with the right to chose who it is that you have a sexual relationship with. You were denied the life of having a partner to share that life with fully (including sexually)

An organization that denies a gay person the right to experience life as a fully functioning sexual adult is homophobic. And that is a fact. *to add...and that includes every single individual that supports such an organization

Richard Oliver

Orphan crow. That is your opinion and you have the right to that. What I was meaning, did I feel that people individually treated me differently, I did not. Again that was my personal experience and how I felt at the time. Did I want to find a man, of course I did. But on a individual level I never felt the people I told treated me differently.

OrphanCrow

That is sad, Richard. It truly is.

I don't want to burst your bubble...but, how do you know what those people thought or what they said about you when you weren't there.

I will make a wild guess and say that you served a valuable service for them in some sort of position that took on a workload that gave them the opportunity to say," Oh, look at brother so and so! He works so hard for the org and you wouldn't even know he is one of those homos! Ah, well...as long as he keeps serving Jehovah and doesn't make the org look bad by actually practicing his sexuality, we will smile and gave him credit! After all...who would do his job if he left?"

I am glad that you felt like you were validated as a human being by other JWs - that was nice of them.

Not a sympathizer

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