HS
the problem with your position is the fact that "elders" regardless of "good" or "bad' are involved in a job that they are neither qualified for or have a RIGHT TOO
And this differs from other religions how?
NO DIFFERENCE at all in my view
They all it seems to me appoint themselves to authority,
Exactly ---AND that is the reason they are All a joke-
that would be like a guy on our job who walked in an ANNOUCED HE IS NOW A MANAGER- without anyone authorizing him to be such and now he wants to start giving orders- everyone on the floor would laugh at his silly behind-
you speak of the elders as if they ACTUALLY have something to do with the bible and god, my dear friend they have neither, while it is true the avg elder thinks he was appointed by Holy Spirit, the fact is HS had nothing to do with him being appointed one is appointed on ones ablitly to TOW THE WT COMPANY LINE
Not really JT. I happen to think that all religions have little to do with God and more to do with themselves. I have yet to find the exception.
I agree
It seems to me that you feel that Holy Spirit has actually appointed some 'elders' somewhere as custodians of other souls.
I'm sorry you got that impression --for my view of religion and belief systems can be summed up as "Same Sh!t just a different PILE"
as has been mention rarely with the "good" elder go up against and elder and RISK losing his position by defending the poor jw member who is being railroaded.
This has not been my experience. I was an elder over twenty two years and served in nine different congregations in three different lands. What I saw was the same format in each congregation. One or two elders with a strong inclination to dominate would bully the rest of the team into a position of subservience
so you make my point bottom line rarely is an elder going to put his title on the line for a "poor Publisher"
The inability of elders such as you admitted to being, is not so much to do with a fear of loss of position, more to do with a moral cowardice.
perhaps so and some my want to argue was it being a coward or being a good loyal elder not wanting the publisher to see division on the body, that can be argued, but the results are the same the publisher will get the short end of the stick if the elder must decide do i allow the body to delete me for standing up for this publisher who was clearly wrong, publisher will lose in almost every case
I suspect even the Governing Body follows this format. This is not rocket science. Even those without 'positions' to lose behave like this in many walks of life.
I agree the Gb do follow this format and yes in life this is done as well, the difference is no "Divine" being is invoked as the reason for ones actions,
if this happens on ones job or in the community or in a political setting no one will say "we all just need to wait on god"
The problem is that sometimes we would like to view JW's as some sort of aliens not quite like us, whereas they are in fact not so disimilar to the rest of the human race, in fact not so disimilar to ourselves!
see- you have it in reverse,---- it is JW WHO INVOKE they they are on some higher "Moral" ground, both in their members and organizational structure-
while most of us are saying -- JW as persons and as an organization are NO DIFFERENT THAN the rest
they are the ones who say they are Separate from the world --most of us realize that they are really just like the rest of the world that we live in
i have spoken to so many jw who were just happy to hear and elder say "Bro Johnson those elders and that body did you wrong or handled that case wrong" yet rarely would and elder, including myself say to the publisher, that body of elders did what to you- give me a couple days and i will get to the bottom of this and then proceed to call up another body of elders and tell them THEY WERE WRONG. Sorry, JT - forgive me but I would view you in this situation as a moral coward. I have known, many, many elders stand up and be counted with no care of position, including myself.
I agree it is indeed moral cowardance, but that is not what we were taught to believe it was
instead we were (esp as elders) taught and beleived that one should never give the impression that the body was not unified and the vast majority of elders would do just as i stated, tell the pub-
yes you have been dealt with wrongly, but wait on jah like david
My point is that to paint all or most elders as unloving, uncaring etc. does not withstand scrutiny
you must be directing this point to someone else for i never said that they were unloving or caring, what i stated was that the vast majority of elders if they had to put thier title on the line for a publisher would not do so- I do not see a lot of elders going to bat for a publisher who has been DFed becasue their case was handled wrong- and please don't let them appeal their case and lose do you mean to tell me that that you think all these "good elders" are going to stand by this publisher in definace of 2 committes YEA RIGHT I am not talking about a case where some sister can't be on the school cause the school overseer thinks her dress is too short or some bro is told his hair is too long to carry the mike and this "good" elder stand by them I'm talking about major stuff for that is where the men and lap dogs are separated I like many elders here stood up for folks in stuff like that- and it goes back to the reason that most elders will not stand up - it is not so much being a coward in their veiw as much as being Loyal- the avg jw elder belives that being on the side of the org and it's system is more imporatant than being right and once an elder no longer feels that way HE WILL JOIN US HERE ONLINE- SMILE d
instead this "good" elder you speak of is trained NEVER TO GO ON RECOrd AS PUBLICLY QUESIONING ANOTHER ELDER in front of a publisher even if the elder is wrong-
You have redifined what I view as a 'good' elder in your own image JT
PERHAPS so --but the comment was made about "good elders" supporting the publishers
and my point was that EVEN the "good elder" will support the publisher ONLY UP TO A POINT -
What you say above is common practice in any structured group, be it business, religion or even a persons own family!
Exactly --thereby making the wt elder arrangement no better than the corp structure of IBM -"Yes Men"
elders yes even your 'good' elder is trained like a lap dog to tell the poor publisher who got the Royal Shaft TO WAIT ON JAH LIKE DAVID
Elders are not just trained to say this JT, they are trained to believe it. This aspect of things is often overlooked when discussing this situation.
I fully agree
SO the bottom line is while it is true he may temper the blows from other elders, never will he take the blows himself Now JT, tell me who is this 'he' you speak of. One hundred percent of JW elders? 70%?
I wish i knew what the % is,--But i do know this- rarely have i heard of elders being Deleted due to sided with publishers who have been wronged , that much i can say-
many elders who talk to pub one on one and tell them that they have been dealt with unfairly would "Sh!t Bricks" if that same publisher went to the CO or that elder body and QUOTED brother "good elder" the reason it all flows down hill for publisher is due to what the entire super structure of wt is built on
Agreed. How though does this make all or most elders unloving and uncaring?
I never said it did- but "IF" you are telling me that a publisher who walks up to a CO and tells him that bro good elder said "The elders handled my case wrong" is going to jump for joy i got a bridge to sell you- my point is simple, while many elders will stand by publisher in private, even on major issues rarely will you see that translate into going to bat for them publicly esp if it puts their title at risk- instead wait on jah and as you mentioned, most of us beleive that is the best policy TO WAIT ON JAH if we have been dealt with wrongly
It just makes them human. How often have you caught yourself short before decrying your employer to a fellow employee, just in case they in an unguarded moment they might mention your feelings. As I say, not rocket science, just human relationships
once again YOU MAKE MY POINT - there is Nothing specical about being a wt elder, no Holy spirit no special insight, just plain folks who put thier pants on one leg at a time it is THEY who claim that god appointed them NOT I.
I WILL say this --if an elder is to be classsifed as a "good" elder he is then on the road to leaving wt and it is just a matter of time
You may be right JT.
in my view most of us who were elders were those "good" elders THAT IS WHY WE LEft
WE realize that we could not beat the "SYSTEM"
I could give a talk and encourage the bro to spend time with thier families- do things on the weekend and 10 min later the next speaker would beat them to death about DO MORE DO MORE
almost every former elder i have spoken to speak of how they tried to Reform THINGS even if it was just on a local level to help the friends have a more balanced life and each time THE SYSTEM would shoot it down
i recall how my wife and i would try to do little things, we organized a once a month bowling game
as you know if you don't go out in service in the AM you can't go out to the alley- we had up to 60-70 folks turning up for field service
it looked like the CO was visiting, all our young folks would be out in service and off to the alley
then the CO called me and shot it down, so we had to close the bowling program
so it reached the point where i knew i had to leave and we have been free for 5 yrs
