Elders - Law Enforcers or Loving

by Jim Dee 101 Replies latest jw friends

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  core

  I have known many that are tyrannical, brutal, arrogant and uncaring but I suspect that had these persons not been Jehovah's Witnesses they would very likely have been the same kind of people.

  Sadly the fruitage of such ones exposes them as they clearly have not put on a new personality if this is the sort of people they are

  I have know genuine elders - generally experienced and older - I have seen younger ones destroy lives, eradicate love and steamroller over anything in their way to approval from the current CO and assembly parts etc.

  SanFransiscoJim - it makes me ashamed that I was part of the organisation that treated you that way

  The role of the CO is strong here in that a rigid CO drives an attitude thru the circuit that is rigid whereas a tolerant loving CO motivates another spirit entirely - as I have posted before - the difference from town to town - cong to cong - country to country stuns me - its a lottery where you live as to what sort of elders u get - and that cannot be right.
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  Room 215

  Hilary,if that's your experience, then I congratulate you on your good fortune. That there are many decent well-motivated JW serving as elders is quite true. It's equally true that such are what they are as human beings in spite of rather than because of, the organization they serve.

  They're being marginalized daily by the Society's ruthless opposition to even the mildest, most respectfully worded, expressions of reservation, much less dissent, not to mention the pervasive anti-intellecutal bent. The latter are an endangered species indeed, as much on the run as was David from Saul.
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  hillary_step

  Blondie,

  The scary thing are the "good" elders who commisserate with you privately, one on one, about how unkind Brother Steamroller is but then when Brother Steamroller rolls over you in front of Brother Good Elder, BGE stands there and says nothing.

  I have certainly seen this happen, and have also witnessed the reverse. I have seen Bro Steamroller, steamrollered, in fact on more than one occasion by the Branch itself. I have been viewed by some as Bro. Steamroller exactly because I stood up to those who abused their authority. I remember when as a Temp CO I removed a whole body of elders for dreadful abuses of power and was then typecast in the Circuit as a 'hammer'. Those who knew me knew this label was ridiculous, but it also shows the danger of careless generalizations. Can you not see an ironic similarity here. All apostates are according to the WTS, proud, arrogant, and do not 'like the Service'. All, or at least the majority of JW elders according to the sentiment of this thread are brutal, cowardly, and unloving. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between these vast ad hominem stances. We would not expect the behavior of XJW's become influencial in the minds of others over an argument that they may present, as I would hope that some 'bad' elders are not being used to smear the personality of thousands of good elders. Though the JW's do claim to be the only true Christians on the planet, they also claim not to be perfect. Best regards - HS
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  hillary_step

  Room,

  That there are many decent well-motivated JW serving as elders is quite true. It's equally true that such are what they are as human beings in spite of rather than because of, the organization they serve. They're being marginalized daily by the Society's ruthless opposition to even the mildest, most respectfully worded, expressions of reservation, much less dissent, not to mention the pervasive anti-intellecutal bent. The latter are an endangered species indeed, as much on the run as was David from Saul.

  I cannot disagree with your comments as they are very much the ones that I stated to begin with. The doctrine is the problem, the people are after all just people. Often we 'demonize' JW's as much as they demonize XJW's. Though ugly elders are certainly more press worthy, I suspect that if someone started a thread identifying how many elders were kind, considerate and helpful to them it would not be a small number.

  Best regards - HS
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  blondie

  I guess HS those who cowardly stand and watch someone be abused by another elder, probably are not "good" elders. (I'm not talking about an isolated incident either.)

  I also view the parent who knows their child is being abused by the other parent and does nothing to protect the child to be equally guilty of the abuse.

  It is true that there are still some elders struggling to be Christlike and kind. Too often they are ridiculed and pressured by other elders on the body. It is getting worse. More and more of these struggling elders are just stepping down rather than stand by and witness this abuse by their fellow elders and being unable to stop the abuse. The CO reported that 25% of the elders in the US step down every year. The cruel/severe elders at least can be identified. But the ones that pretend to be kind and then don't protect the sheep......both will have to answer to a higher power than one on earth.

  Blondie
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  hillary_step

  Blondie,

  I guess HS those who cowardly stand and watch someone be abused by another elder, probably are not "good" elders. (I'm not talking about an isolated incident either.)

  Agreed, and those who do not stand by and watch this situation develop ( I am not talking about isolated incidents either ) are probably good elders? How are you quantifying numbers and motive? Ten percent are good? Twenty percent? There are 'bad' JW elders, I would suggest that these are actually not a large number, but are more a dominant force. Your figure below for example, of how many step aside as elders each year in the US, if true actually work against many of the arguments presented here, that is that most if not all elders are cruel, unloving, etc.

  I also view the parent who knows their child is being abused by the other parent and does nothing to protect the child to be equally guilty of the abuse.

  Agreed, though this has little to do with my point, which was that painting all or most JW elders as brutal, uncaring and arrogant is an extreme viewpoint that does not survive close scrutiny.

  It is true that there are still some elders struggling to be Christlike and kind. Too often they are ridiculed and pressured by other elders on the body.

  This can and does happen, though again I would dispute with you over it happening 'too often'. I think that persons often view those who have a weak personality as being 'Christlike', I do not see it that way. Weak elders can actually cause many of the problems that you note because they do not show the courage of their convictions and stand up to the minority of elders who tend to take over elder bodies. There are always one or two personalities who try to dominate an elder body and due to weak-hearted persons not opposing them they will then try to impress their stamp on the others. It is as much to do with being a 'man' as being an elder. You will always find it is a minority who fall into the description that Jim Dee opened this thread with, the others are perhaps just wek, or not inclined towards confontation for divers reasons. This is no different imho with any walk of life, be it religion, business or social. People are just people.

  It is getting worse. More and more of these struggling elders are just stepping down rather than stand by and witness this abuse by their fellow elders and being unable to stop the abuse. The CO reported that 25% of the elders in the US step down every year.

  That is not ( stepping aside ) imho very 'Christlike'. If the Bible is to be believed then Christ was a powerful man who was not scared to face this sort of person and make a stand for what was right and honest. I stepped aside as an elder, as have scores of my peers due not to congregation or personality issues but outrageous doctrine. Doctrines that one is virtually powerless as an elder to influence. I suspect that a lot of the 25% who step aside as elders, like myself did so because they just do not believe the doctrinal fairy tale any longer.

  The cruel/severe elders at least can be identified. But the ones that pretend to be kind and then don't protect the sheep......both will have to answer to a higher power than one on earth.

  The ones who pretend to be kind, but then do not protect the sheep may be the very ones you identify as those who cave in under ‘pressure’ and ‘ridicule’. You can see the problem in painting too widely.

  There are far to many generalities thrown around when discussing these issues than to do anything other than make me realize that when an XJW takes his eyes off the real target, the Governing Body, all manner of perceived realties can become the order of the day.

  Best regards - HS
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  JT

  Very good points! The reason the brotherhood act like souless, lower level managers concerned with enforcing their "guildlines" is because they follow the lead of their overlords. The WatchTower is a business masquerading as a religion. It is just a cold, heartless corporation, devoid of any truly God-like qualities. So with this in mind in is of little wonder that JW elders behave like the petty, small minded, spiteful men that run it

  this must ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED and if one looks at it in any other light such as it "has something to do with god bible religion" then they have WON

  it is the same was when the Mafia, or Drug King Pins try to present themselves as outstanding business men in the community, the suits and cars look good, but the motivation is death and pain-

  same as this poster has so clearly pointed out wt is a biz

  ask anyone who worked for a large or small corportation and new managment took over and just CUT FOLKS with no consideration for folks feeling and they will tell you

  WE MADE THE CUTS AND IT WAS NOT PERSONAL JUST BIZ

  and the same with the wt they make thier decisions not based on how you or i will feel, but strictly biz decision on how it will help or hurt the corportion, BOTTOM LINE
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  JT

  HS

  the problem with your position is the fact that "elders" regardless of "good" or "bad' are involved in a job that they are neither qualified for or have a RIGHT TOO

  you speak of the elders as if they ACTUALLY have something to do with the bible and god, my dear friend they have neither, while it is true the avg elder thinks he was appointed by Holy Spirit, the fact is HS had nothing to do with him being appointed one is appointed on ones ablitly to TOW THE WT COMPANY LINE

  as has been mention rarely with the "good" elder go up against and elder and RISK losing his position by defending the poor jw member who is being railroaded

  i have spoken to so many jw who were just happy to hear and elder say "Bro Johnson those elders and that body did you wrong or handled that case wrong"

  yet rarely would and elder, including myself say to the publisher, that body of elders did what to you- give me a couple days and i will get to the bottom of this and then proceed to call up another body of elders and tell them THEY WERE WRONG

  instead this "good" elder you speak of is trained NEVER TO GO ON RECOrd AS PUBLICLY QUESIONING ANOTHER ELDER in front of a publisher even if the elder is wrong-

  elders yes even your 'good' elder is trained like a lap dog to tell the poor publisher who got the Royal Shaft TO WAIT ON JAH LIKE DAVID

  SO the bottom line is while it is true he may temper the blows from other elders, never will he take the blows himself

  many elders who talk to pub one on one and tell them that they have been dealt with unfairly would "Sh!t Bricks" if that same publisher went to the CO or that elder body and QUOTED brother "good elder"

  the reason it all flows down hill for publisher is due to what the entire super structure of wt is built on

  i am sure that there were SS storm troopers who didn;t want to beat women and children and perhaps even came to the aid of many privately, but i am sure rarely would this same man TAKE A STAND and risk his own neck-

  yet and elder would not even be risking his life like a SS troopper merely his TITLE and the vast mojority of them would not risk even that

  one of two things happen to elders, one they either continue to support the system of WT or like many of us who served as elders realize that the entire system if flawed and get the He!! Out

  there are so many former elders here who tried to temper the blows, including myself and it will reach a point that one will have CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE and will have to make a choice, PRETEND to support they system or ROLL ON OUT

  I WILL say this --if an elder is to be classsifed as a "good" elder he is then on the road to leaving wt and it is just a matter of time
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  orangefatcat

  from what I am reading is sad in many ways, but regretfully true. The years for elders to be more caring and understanding and loving have lessened. Now it is lets go get em. Even as several have mentioned even in their own ranks of elders. When my dad was an elder I was taught that elders were holy, were men who inspired respect in every sense of the word. Why, because what they uttered was from the laws of God's Word and the food from the "slave class".

  I had deep respect for many and I appreciate the sincereity of many of you former elders, because I see you were ones who did indeed work hard at helping the sheep, in a loving and caring way.

  So what has happened? POWER, MONEY, and I KNOW BROTHER SO AND SO. The Society's GB have become men of extreme age, and so younger men and men in legal postion are running the Society. It seems whatever they say is what rules. Gee lets destroy several acres of beautiul land that we are suppose to be preparing for the new system and put printing facilities. there. MMMMMM 9-11 lets lie to the organization about that and tell them one thing and we know we did another thing. Lets see, lets show we have power buy crunching these SILENT LAMBs. Lets create brothers on committees to lie or white over things so we can show that these youung people are liars. Lets enforce our power , let the brothers die in Malawi and yet let our live in Mexico take bribes. Lets set double standards for the congregations. Let the elders handle it. We will tell them what to do, if the bro. don't like it, then heads will roll. My God several elders knew already of the Societys hypocricy. What to do. Mixed messages again.

  On a cong. level when someone does something, like lies, we have to discipline them.. If they help their ailing parents who are not witnesses or family members that are not witnesses or family that is disfellowshipped we can't help them, just like the society did on 9-11. Or did they or didn't they ?

  my lamb has things of importance to reveal but the elders didn't pay attention for they thought they might get intouble. Because the society sends out double signals and lies.

  The body of elders have been under constant pressure, some withstood it others buckled, others thought no one is goiong to push me around I will start throwing my weight around. I will become less compassionate, I won't listen to the sick or ill, I will jusst ignore them all and just make sure they get their hours in. cause that is only what this society wants..

  Its not based on the founder Jesus Christ, how could it be. JC was a lover of all men and women and children, no class distinction. No rulers with arrogant laws and he taught his apostles that even if they erred and asked forgiveness it was given. Not even once has the GBasked for forgiveness for the way they have mistreated many. Betrayed many. On blood and transplants and the list goes on and on.

  Elders of this day and age have became harsh because the society is harsh.

  Anyway this is how I feel and hope I have offended no one. Peace......

  Orangefatcat....
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  JT

  Its not based on the founder Jesus Christ

  bottom line

  yes the wt is a biz and it merely reflects that in the way it treats its employees- the same as so many other biz thruout histroy have treated it employees-

  and as long as wt can hide behind the masquarade of being a religion it will continue for years to come

  as has been pointed out if wt was not hiding behind religion , it would be hauled into court for FRAUD

  BUT then again the dockets would be full with churches on trial smile