Elders - Law Enforcers or Loving

by Jim Dee 101 Replies latest jw friends

hillary_step

JT,
Many thanks for your post.
the problem with your position is the fact that "elders" regardless of "good" or "bad' are involved in a job that they are neither qualified for or have a RIGHT TOO
And this differs from other religions how? They all it seems to me appoint themselves to authority, in the absence of of a signed contract from Christ himself. The JW's elders differ only in degree of authority over adherents, not in the principle of authority over adherents.
you speak of the elders as if they ACTUALLY have something to do with the bible and god, my dear friend they have neither, while it is true the avg elder thinks he was appointed by Holy Spirit, the fact is HS had nothing to do with him being appointed one is appointed on ones ablitly to TOW THE WT COMPANY LINE
Not really JT. I happen to think that all religions have little to do with God and more to do with themselves. I have yet to find the exception. It seems to me that you feel that Holy Spirit has actually appointed some 'elders' somewhere as custodians of other souls. I would like to meet them and ask what their elder body, or theological council is like. I suspect it will just be a watered down version of JW elders
as has been mention rarely with the "good" elder go up against and elder and RISK losing his position by defending the poor jw member who is being railroaded.
This has not been my experience. I was an elder over twenty two years and served in nine different congregations in three different lands. What I saw was the same format in each congregation. One or two elders with a strong inclination to dominate would bully the rest of the team into a position of subservience and then the porr publishers would begin to suffer. The inability of elders such as you admitted to being, is not so much to do with a fear of loss of position, more to do with a moral cowardice. I suspect even the Governing Body follows this format. This is not rocket science. Even those without 'positions' to lose behave like this in many walks of life. The problem is that sometimes we would like to view JW's as some sort of aliens not quite like us, whereas they are in fact not so disimilar to the rest of the human race, in fact not so disimilar to ourselves!
i have spoken to so many jw who were just happy to hear and elder say "Bro Johnson those elders and that body did you wrong or handled that case wrong" yet rarely would and elder, including myself say to the publisher, that body of elders did what to you- give me a couple days and i will get to the bottom of this and then proceed to call up another body of elders and tell them THEY WERE WRONG.
Sorry, JT - forgive me but I would view you in this situation as a moral coward. I have known, many, many elders stand up and be counted with no care of position, including myself. I have known brave men, cowards, bullies, saints and sinners who were elders. My point is that to paint all or most elders as unloving, uncaring etc. does not withstand scrutiny.
instead this "good" elder you speak of is trained NEVER TO GO ON RECOrd AS PUBLICLY QUESIONING ANOTHER ELDER in front of a publisher even if the elder is wrong-
You have redifined what I view as a 'good' elder in your own image JT. What you say above is common practice in any structured group, be it business, religion or even a persons own family!
elders yes even your 'good' elder is trained like a lap dog to tell the poor publisher who got the Royal Shaft TO WAIT ON JAH LIKE DAVID
Elders are not just trained to say this JT, they are trained to believe it. This aspect of things is often overlooked when discussing this situation.
SO the bottom line is while it is true he may temper the blows from other elders, never will he take the blows himself
Now JT, tell me who is this 'he' you speak of. One hundred percent of JW elders? 70%? As I asked Blondie, on what basis are you quantifying your statement which, if I may say so, is high on rhetoric and short on substance.
many elders who talk to pub one on one and tell them that they have been dealt with unfairly would "Sh!t Bricks" if that same publisher went to the CO or that elder body and QUOTED brother "good elder" the reason it all flows down hill for publisher is due to what the entire super structure of wt is built on
Agreed. How though does this make all or most elders unloving and uncaring? It just makes them human. How often have you caught yourself short before decrying your employer to a fellow employee, just in case they in an unguarded moment they might mention your feelings. As I say, not rocket science, just human relationships.
I WILL say this --if an elder is to be classsifed as a "good" elder he is then on the road to leaving wt and it is just a matter of time
You may be right JT.
Best regards
Pistoff

The last serious discussion I had with elders in my last congregation was beyond belief to me: I asked why a couple was allowed to have a private wedding in the kingdom hall, something forbidden by the WT's, old and new. The elder (brother in law to the bride) explained that the bride's emotional makeup just would not allow for a big wedding. I asked the other elder how he felt. He said he agreed that it was wrong. The other elder said he saw nothing wrong with it. I said, what about the WT articles. He shrugged. I asked them both again to explain themselves; they said they do not agree with each other, that was that. This charade was replayed with the elders in this hall over and over; they have one marine sargeant of an elder, and he is a tyrant; no children, no compassion, no pleasant demeanor. And the others just tolerate it. He is connected, by the way, to a CO that is the same way; tactless, cruel and one who bends the rules to his own liking. I agree, HS, that it is not proof or disproof of doctrine here; the critical thing for me is that I CAN SAY something about it. I never could before. It feels good to say that the reality is NOT what they say or even think it is; for me, this is about ridding myself of the cognitive dissonance that ruled me for so many years.
blondie

HS, I'm sure it must be frustrating for a "sister" to have such a strong opinion on the makeup of elder bodies. First, I am a 3rd generation JW (or was in some people's opinion). My grandfather was one of the first elders in this area in the 20's and 30's. I have a large extended family of JWs who live all over the US. Some of my life was spent growing up in Europe. So I have had input from the male members of my family, MS, elders, etc. Probably wasn't right, but I am one of those people that others tell their secrets and give their burdens to.
Second, I have had my own experiences with elders over the years, good and bad. I have worked with many at assemblies and conventions, and at Bethel. Many times it has not been an upbuilding experience.
Third, I speak from at least 35 years of exposure to all of this. In recent years, I have noticed that many brothers who sincerely have tried to apply Bible principles are being worn down by the ones who do not. My husband was such an elder. In the last congregation alone, 3 elders in 2 years stepped down. Two moved to get away from the one elder. One MS refuses to serve as an elder (turned down appointment twice so far) as along as a certain elder is on the body. I could go on and on and try to provide the numbers or stats you see to want. But I don't have those kind of numbers. I just see that the problem of unkind/cruel/conniving elders has been in every congregation and the other "good" elders either can't or won't do anything. Peace at any price. I have relatives in 20 congregations in this area and 15 in another circuit. They all have the same complaint. Is it pressure from the GB, COs and DOs, or have the "bad" ones just given up trying? Or have they been emboldened by the lack of discipline? My husband was particularly aware of the lack of consideration and devaluation of the publishers voiced by half of the last elder body he served on. Of course, they did not "say" these things to the publisher, but it what they really thought.
As to the 25% stepping down, the CO did not state exactly but he did allude to the need of the elders getting along better (from 5 different elders from 5 different congregations). So I don't think it is a doctrinal point that motivates them initially to consider stepping down. I do know of 2 elders that were removed because they challenged the unloving action of the elders. It was not on a point of doctrine.
So, I'll conclude to say that it is important to look at each person as an individual. One cruel elder does not guarantee that the next one will be. It might mean being a little careful about trusting them with your feelings or anything else important until you are sure where they are coming from. I will agree that the WTS does not train elders to be loving and compassionate. My husband says the elder schools are not a training in how to love the sheep but how to perform the administrative duties at the KH. Couple that with the discouragement from the "bad" elders who discourage the "good" ones, perhaps because it makes them look bad, I am surprised any elders come out with a heart at all. In the end, we are each responsible for our own actions and decisions. Some people may make it harder but the decision is always ours.
Blondie
wheres caleb?

It's nice to know that there will always be those that have a more accurate view of the 'big picture' than others. No one here has to quantify anything. We all have our own unique experiences with the organization and we have this forum available to us to express our feelings.
I personally dislike the 'imperfection' excuse. We're all imperfect, but who in the world has ever expected perfection from others? If someone were to make the argument that we are all imperfect, aren't they suggesting that we don't know that? All religions establish their hierarchy, that doesn't make them equal. The Catholic hierarchy says that they are infallible, the JW's say that they are servants. God gave us the bible and many (oh wait, do I have to quantify that) religions build their precepts based on their understanding, interpretation, whatever you want to call it, and biased inclinations on application. What religion doesn't believe that it has God behind them? What religion doesn't believe to serve God? When a religion lies or witholds information to avoid scandal, do they entertain the possibility of accountablility, that leaving things in God's hands could spell their doom? How real is God to them?
I'm sorry HS, but much of what you write can be described as rhetoric as well. (I include myself) As for giving up your eldership because of doctrinal differences, that could be described as 'cowardly' also.
One of the members of the governing body was addressing a graduating class of gilead and he shared this story.
In his early years at bethel he was approached by some brothers who differed with the governing body on some of the understandings of the scriptures. After having things explained to him, he realized that they were right and the organization was wrong. This group of brothers wanted to leave bethel and he was asked to join them. After some thought, he decided to stay at bethel and wait for the time when the organization would change it's position on that matter. As he put it, he learned the truth from this organization and would just wait on Jehovah to correct matters. Eventually the understanding on these matters were changed, just as he had predicted, and it was a very happy story. (He purposefully omitted the specifics)
Where do I stand in all of this? I have read the bible from cover-to-cover more than once. That doesn't make me a bible scholar but it entitles me to my own beliefs. The conduct of elders (good and bad) falls short of the example of Jesus. The actions by those that can be descibed as having strong personalities, as well as those that are the weak followers, is anything but Christ-like. If a person wants to vent and express their unique perspective, I would not want to suggest that they are less enlightened than myself. The Jesus that I read about in the bible understands their pain.
hillary_step

Blondie,
HS, I'm sure it must be frustrating for a "sister" to have such a strong opinion on the makeup of elder bodies. First, I am a 3rd generation JW (or was in some people's opinion). My grandfather was one of the first elders in this area in the 20's and 30's. I have a large extended family of JWs who live all over the US. Some of my life was spent growing up in Europe. So I have had input from the male members of my family, MS, elders, etc. Probably wasn't right, but I am one of those people that others tell their secrets and give their burdens to.
I am sorry that you feel this. It could not be further from the truth and shows how easy it is to misread others on discussion boards. I have never been one to care about the sex of the person when a discussion on takes place regarding something that I feel strongly about. This especially so on-line where all I do is respond to points made regardless of the sex of the person making them. I think you are carrying an understable over-sensitivity in your psyche due to the wat JW women are treated, but you have missed the boat on this one where I am concerned.
Second, I have had my own experiences with elders over the years, good and bad. I have worked with many at assemblies and conventions, and at Bethel. Many times it has not been an upbuilding experience.
Yes, I and that is exactly the point that I have been making. In every sphere of life, one finds good experiences and bad ones, 'good' people and 'bad' people. I would not deem myself worthy of judgment by sweeping statement.
Third, I speak from at least 35 years of exposure to all of this. In recent years, I have noticed that many brothers who sincerely have tried to apply Bible principles are being worn down by the ones who do not. My husband was such an elder. In the last congregation alone, 3 elders in 2 years stepped down. Two moved to get away from the one elder. One MS refuses to serve as an elder (turned down appointment twice so far) as along as a certain elder is on the body. I could go on and on and try to provide the numbers or stats you see to want. But I don't have those kind of numbers. I just see that the problem of unkind/cruel/conniving elders has been in every congregation and the other "good" elders either can't or won't do anything. Peace at any price. I have relatives in 20 congregations in this area and 15 in another circuit. They all have the same complaint. Is it pressure from the GB, COs and DOs, or have the "bad" ones just given up trying? Or have they been emboldened by the lack of discipline? My husband was particularly aware of the lack of consideration and devaluation of the publishers voiced by half of the last elder body he served on. Of course, they did not "say" these things to the publisher, but it what they really thought.
Blondie, I do understand where you are coming from, and please send your husband my commiserations. This does not really attend to the issue of how people seem to be able to make statements to the affect that all or most elders are uncaring, unloving etc. This is the point of issue and all that your statement proves is that this is the case, there seem to be many elders in your family for example who are caring.
As to the 25% stepping down, the CO did not state exactly but he did allude to the need of the elders getting along better (from 5 different elders from 5 different congregations). So I don't think it is a doctrinal point that motivates them initially to consider stepping down. I do know of 2 elders that were removed because they challenged the unloving action of the elders. It was not on a point of doctrine.
Then reaching the conclusion that 25% of elders in the US step aside due to 'pressure' and 'ridicule' is actually speculative.
So, I'll conclude to say that it is important to look at each person as an individual. One cruel elder does not guarantee that the next one will be. It might mean being a little careful about trusting them with your feelings or anything else important until you are sure where they are coming from.
lol....Now Blondie, you are singing my song...
I will agree that the WTS does not train elders to be loving and compassionate. My husband says the elder schools are not a training in how to love the sheep but how to perform the administrative duties at the KH. Couple that with the discouragement from the "bad" elders who discourage the "good" ones, perhaps because it makes them look bad, I am surprised any elders come out with a heart at all. In the end, we are each responsible for our own actions and decisions. Some people may make it harder but the decision is always ours.
He is quite correct in my experience and so are you in your summation. If you want to know what is running through the GB's mind, attend an elders school. Long periods of boredom punctauted by a few moments of outrage.
Keep well, and kind regards to Mr Blondie - HS
hillary_step

Caleb
It's nice to know that there will always be those that have a more accurate view of the 'big picture' than others. No one here has to quantify anything. We all have our own unique experiences with the organization and we have this forum available to us to express our feelings.
Did I spot a wee bit of sarcasm here.... When a person or persons suggest on a public discussion Board that all or most elders are uncaring and unloving, it is they that have quantified something. I hope that you can see that. It was my objective to if possible ‘unquantify’ the issue by suggesting that you cannot judge thousands of people with a few sweeping statements. I suggest that you re-read my posts.
I personally dislike the 'imperfection' excuse.
If you are a Christian, this is the excuse that God gives you for not killing you, at least not immediately. Take it up with him/ her, he / she seems to feel it is a valid reason for mercy.
I'm sorry HS, but much of what you write can be described as rhetoric as well. (I include myself) As for giving up your eldership because of doctrinal differences, that could be described as 'cowardly' also.
Please explain why you say tthis. It reads like a very powerful thought but it lacks substance. My point is that not all elders are uncaring and unloving. Is that rhetoric? The other point I made that you allude to is that most elders that I have known who have stepped aside in recent years have done so because they no longer believe the doctrines that they teach. How is this rhetoric? Why is this cowardly?
Where do I stand in all of this? I have read the bible from cover-to-cover more than once. That doesn't make me a bible scholar but it entitles me to my own beliefs.
I would hope that even those who have not read the bible can see the dangers of sweeping statements.
The conduct of elders (good and bad) falls short of the example of Jesus. The actions by those that can be descibed as having strong personalities, as well as those that are the weak followers, is anything but Christ-like. If a person wants to vent and express their unique perspective, I would not want to suggest that they are less enlightened than myself. The Jesus that I read about in the bible understands their pain.
Well, if your pont had validity you would also need as a Christian ( I presume this from your comments ) to take on board the many times that the apostles and disciples repeatedly fell short of the example of Jesus. For example, Peter was weak and a strong Paul faced him. How does this affect your argument?. They were presumably even more to be examined as Apostles than as elders.
I am open to a conviction that is not my own at present, but what you write does little move my views towards your own.
Best regards - HS
hillary_step

Jim Dee,
A genuine thank you for this thread. Though my viewpoints are different tna your own, I have greatly enjoyed this interchange. IMHO this is the kind of thread that makes this Board worth visiting. I hope that others join in and add their own dimensions to it.
Best regards - HS
wednesday

I just wanted to say that the fear of losing their position is what drives most of the elders i have known. they have put up with all sorts of abuse from bully eldrs, just to keep that position. i had a close relationship with an elder for over 20 years.He used to confide in me. So i heard "the rest of the story" as they say. U tell me, where is a plumber going to advance and hold a title like they an in the org?
wheres caleb?

Hi HS
I would not presume to make you see things my way. My post was not intended to do that. I understand the issue of imperfection, just not it's use as an excuse for wrongdoing. I believe I was clear on that. You make a good point on 'sweeping statements' and I didn't miss that from any of your previous posts. If I were to say that we are all, individually, going to be judged for our actions then that would be a 'sweeping statement'.
Blondie made some good points. I think that you are just being argumentative and that was the gist of my post.
I can never prove you wrong. Just as you feel compelled to make your point about sweeping statements, I think people are entitled to express their feelings. I don't think that you have the ability to prove anyone else wrong.
We were waiting for a sister who was talking at the householder's door for 20 minutes. We thought that she had started a bible study. When she came to the car she was all frustrated and admitted that she was arguing with the householder the whole time. She wasted her time thinking that she could get others to see things her way.
I think you are feeling misunderstood. I think we all understand your point about 'sweeping statements'. Does that invalidate anyone's feelings? That's for them to decide.
Jim Dee

Just to kind of round this one off
Reading peoples comments I have found that - although to some I am a "Little South", nevertheless there seems to have been a nerve touched here
I speak from personal experience. I gave up trying to be kind, moderate, helpful and loving. I was hounded out of the BOE - yet my concience is clear. Politics plays a huge role in the BOE. The hard liners get the bigger jobs.
Reading through the posts I thought all of you were in my cong!! Same the world over. The christlike are **** upon and the hardliners bulldoze there way through. Yet the generation of elders we took over from (I'm 50) were christlike, were caring, were forgiving and loving.
Whats happened?
Now its who is best selling the books, and eforcing - they are the elders now. What does the future hold?
He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword
Jim

Elders - Law Enforcers or Loving

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