Elders - Law Enforcers or Loving

by Jim Dee 101 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  SixofNine

  I'm not sure if I'll jump feet first into this conversation or not, as I could spend a ton of time on it and still only come round to a few basic facts and maxims that inform my opinion even now:
  

  People are just people, no matter what religion they're in, and that means whatever else I believe, I have to believe that elders are just people.

  If the GB is the crankshaft, the elders are the pistons driving the combustion that is burning and shafting the individuals.

  The system is fatally flawed, so if an elder is going to proactively be a good guy, he's going to have to buck the system. That means that conciously or sub-conciously, he's a rebel against the F&DS.

  I had mostly bad experiences with elders, perhaps even only bad experiences with elders, in their official capacity (nothing good comes to mind right now anyway). Whether they were following orders to a T, or bending rules for their own expediency or stupidity, I always suffered spiritually (read: emotionally). It seems they never can do anything right... but then again, it's a fatally flawed system.

  _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  Ah.... what'dya say? I mean, thinking about this starts to bring up the old rage. They could do so much better, and they could get away with doing so much better. Just be freakin' human y'know. DONT put the suit on... just show up with a six-pack and talk to the brother about what's got him down. Tell the other elders to "stuff it, there's no reason not to wear a beard".... Admit you don't know why sister-abused-as-a-child is promiscuous, but it sure isn't because she's wicked, and hey, just maybe those tears really are genuine (humanity hint for elders, *most tears are genuine * most people don't like crying in front of people * ) They (elders) could get away with it, if they'd just be men first, and sheep * second. No one wants to take that first step into manhood, that's the problem. I've said it before, to be a JW elder is to be systematically castrated, slowly but surely. The only exceptions are the men who resist, either conciously or subconciously.

  *That's the trouble with analogies; I really think it was a mistake for Jesus to use that bone headed illustration about sheep.

  But why does this subject bring up a rage in me? Cuz I'm a loose canon, lol? No, I did quite good at seeing them as human, and giving them leeway as a witness. I tell you, I've done better than most ex-jws, imo, as I was leaving, to let go of anger at the elders and for that matter everyone in the org. My rage comes up, mostly from the feelings I felt while still in, as a believer, and from the injustices perpetrated by elders on so many occasions. It always seemed to be the org above the individual, even when no rules would have been broken to care for the individual! Almost as if there is an unwritten rule to screw the person in order to make an example to the congregation.

  Hillary,
  

  and I am sure that I am not unique in my field of aquaintances.

  From what I've seen Hillary, you are very unique in your field of aquaintances. You've run with the movers and shakers in the org, and with celebrities outside the org. That is a very unusual perspective to be aproaching this discussion. I'm not saying I disagree with your points, ( I haven't even read this thread from the beginning yet) but I do reckon that you must have to get far outside of your own experience to give this topic due respect.
• 

  JT

  HS

  you have asked for a %- from my understanding in excess of over 100,000 men carry the title ELDER

  I have not read any post that has stated that "not one single elder is good",

  what i have read --is that due to the system of wt be it indoctrination or the person being a coward

  the result is the same- as you mentioned in your post lost of elders have provided support for folks going thru problems in their life, with the kids, drinking , loss of jobs etc

  and yes elders indeed have help, many of us have reached into our pockets to help out without ever expecting to be repaid-

  but when "Push comes to shove" and this poor publisher has been wronged for example in a JC case this same elder who would give this publisher money in my exp and the exp of most of us would not put his title on the line, now are their elders who would, yes i am sure

  but as jesus said a real friend is one who will lay down his life for you

  and for an elder to stand by such a wronged publisher who put him at risk of being deleted and DFed himself

  now are you telling me that the vast majority of the "Good" elders that you personally know would be willing to go THAT FOR for a publisher that has been wronged

  as with everything else in wt it is all CONDITIONAL-

  WHEN an elder must chose between the poor wronged publisher and his title or org--

  i know of very few publishers who would be able to count on this "good" elder

  so my question to you would be if this "good" elder failed to stand at a time that the publisher needed him the most is he truly a "good" elder

  let me ask you , if you had to face a JC yourself in defending a wronged publisher, WOULD YOU

  or would you have told the publisher TO LET YOURSELF BE WRONGED??
• 

  JT

  You have redifined what I view as a 'good' elder in your own image JT.

  HS

  i wnet back and reread your comments to a post i had made and i have to agree with you I think that you and i are defining a "good" elder in different terms,. and that is where you and i differ

  I think that the concept of a "good" elder is indeed a contridiction, much like i had mentioned a "good" SS stormtrooper is a contriction

  while there were perhaps SS troops who didn';t beat folks as hard as others or at all perhaps-

  in order for them to stand by the person it would mean thier neck on the line, and so while they may have brought an extra crust of bread for the person--even telling them "I don't want to hurt you" once again when "Push comes to Shove" they would not stand by that person if their life was on the line

  and i see the same with elders, yes i know lots of elders who would be quick to say

  " THE BRO ARE DOING YOU WRONG" and as you mentioned --i know some who would even approach the body or an elder to let him know, ----BUT --

  if that body or elder wanted to take it to the next level (questioning this elders qualifications to continue to serve) and Lord have mercy not called into question if this elder is going against the Org- I just don't see a large % of elders allowing that to happen.

  and to me that is what determines if you are a good man or not, Do you hold your ground when the FIRE COMES

  AND in all my years of being a jw i have Heard of a FEW elders who -stepped aside due to seeing someone being dealt with wrongly, but i have NEVER HEARD (AND I'M SURE SOME ARE OUT THERE) an elder who was DFed for standing up for a publisher who was wronged - WHILE STILL believing this is the Truth

  for the elders i know who have been DFed for standing up for something wrong in the org, these guys realized that the Org was bogus anyway- so it was like they are now trying to be reinstated.

  to me the concept of a "good" elder on goes so far, it is as if it is a contridiction of statement- for the whole purpose of an elder is to be a SOCIETY MAN

  the wt tower does appointe men for the purpose of not towing the line and for that reason the vast mojoity of them fall in line be it indoctrination or being a coward who has been bullied- it matters not
• 

  hillary_step

  JT,
  

  Please understand that I am not defending the system. I am not concluding that people are not harmed by the system, or by self-seeking elders, or that some 'good' elders become bad humans, these arguments are all not relevant to my argument. The continual attempts to argue ' well, if they are good they will either be kicked out or become bad', is a red herring as I have stated. Perhaps at this juncture over-stated!

  My point is and always has been, that making statements such as 'all' or even 'most? elders are unloving and uncaring is simply inaccurate and cannot be sustained by the facts. Every person on this thread has and is gradually changing their position from the 'all or nothing scenario' that pervaded their first posts, to now admitting and accepting that many elders are indeed caring and loving. They then qualify this acceptance by suggesting that these people, becuase they are 'good' elders, are eventually spewed out by the system or in the process of being spewed out. As I have said this is irrelevant to my point and perhaps food for another thread, another time.

  Let me remind you of my opening post :

  I have known, and continue to know many who are elders and who are decent, kind and very loving people and display this in the way that they deal with others. I have been in congregations where the body of elders to a person are thoroughly likable and caring people. Of course I have known many that are tyrannical, brutal, arrogant and uncaring but I suspect that had these persons not been Jehovah's Witnesses they would very likely have been the same kind of people.

  I think what you are now saying JT in essence is exactly what I said in my opening post with the precursor that even these decent people when given a choice between standing firm for justice or caving in to the system, tend to cave in. I have seen many cave in, I have seen many not, but this is not relevant to the point at issue.

  One might also conjecture that any decent person, including yourself, may one day be put in a compromising position and act contrary to your finer ideals.. That does not undermine the fact that 1) you are presently showing love and concern 2) You are a loving, caring person who compromised. Either one of these realities undermines the assumption that ?all? or ?most? elders are uncaring and unloving - it simply is not true.

  I will prove this to you by quoting something your wrote and asking some simple questions that just require one word answers :
  

  to me the concept of a "good" elder on goes so far, it is as if it is a contridiction of statement- for the whole purpose of an elder is to be a SOCIETY MAN

  Can a 'Society Man', as you put it, ever show genuine love and kindess? 1) to his wife? 2) to his children? 3) To his neighbours 4) to his friends at work 3) to his friends in the congregation?

  If this 'Society Man' happens to be an elder is it ever possible under any circumstances for him to show genuine love to anybody in any situation?

  I will not stand by and watch the guilt by association card being played. Apart from seldom leading to accurate definitions and conclusions ( as this thread has shown ) it devalues the human spirit both of those accused and their accusers.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  JT

  I know and have known elders who are, world class musicians, CEO's and executives of numerous corporations including one of the largest in North America, doctors, nurses, artists, inventors, screenwriters, airline pilots, et. etc. and these are just ones that I have met over the years

  While I too have meet such persons as you have descibed above as well, i do know that it in NO WAY reflects the typical Elder who gives life and death advice to publishers

  when you consider that the avg congo has let's say just 3 elders and currently there are over 60,000+ congo worldwide

  we are talking about 180,000_men who serve as advisors --and trust me thier background/profession in life is not like what you have descibed above-

  as you move around the world --esp in 3rd world countries-- we are talking about men with less that High School education being put in a role of advisor on life and death issue- yes pure SOCIETY MEN

  many times ones professional career calls upon them to make decision and disagree with others in authority, but Fred working picking

  Dole Pineapples is not going to be doing alot of disagreeing over how many pineapples should go into a cart- instead he will more than likely have been a person who has always been TOLD WHAT TO DO.

  he will not face the decision making issues that the CEO you mentioned faces on a daily bases

  so now for the first time in his life as a Cheese and Cracker Man --HE IS IN CHARGE OF SOMETHING -and God gave him the job

  nothing can be more dangerous than a fool who thinks god appointed him to tell you and i what to do and not do

  so if your background exp includes lots of person who have attained things out side of wt, then yes i can see them many more times taking a stand on issues, but for the vast majority of men appointed -their background does not reflect such.
• 

  JT

  Can a 'Society Man', as you put it, ever show genuine love and kindess? 1) to his wife? 2) to his children? 3) To his neighbours 4) to his friends at work 3) to his friends in the congregation?

  If this 'Society Man' happens to be an elder is it ever possible under any circumstances for him to show genuine love to anybody in any situation?

  of course , if you re- read my post I have never said that they couldn't

  i have never said that there are no good elders-

  i have stated that when this person must chose between the poor publisher and the org in my exp --the pub is going to lose.

  if i was a betting man-- i would place my bet on the org winning the vast amount of the time

  in my opinion most jw in general are good decent folks who love the bible , that is why my mom became a jw she wanted to understand and live by the bible-

  yet when jw be it elder or pub must chose this same "good" person will drop you faster than a hot potatoe

  just read the post about folks families who shun them- i am sure that as long as the person towed the line ther parent, sisters bro , elders would go out of thier way to help them, but it IS ALL CONDITIONAL

  and more so with elders for they percieve they have more to lose, ( position, title , prestige, honor and then their very lives)

  so with that as their mindset their "goodness" is only conditional
• 

  Aztec

  Will,

  "As far as his family was concerned he was menatlly and phyiscally abusive. I feel that your number one priority should be your family"

  My father's number one priority was his family. He was physically and mentally abusive to us because he had no idea what he was doing! It was more symptomatic to the JW teachings than to him as a person. I've forgiven him and moved on. He did what, in his mind, was the correct thing. He always followed his conscience when it came to us and the congregation. I've known more good elders than bad. Even the ones who presided over my JC were not trying to torture or humiliate me. They were doing what they were told and they seemed genuinely concerned about me. It's a humiliating experience!

  Still, I think over emotionalizing this is not helpful and only makes ex witnesses look like people with a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind. Think about the bigger picture and what this does to people who may be lurking! There are bad elders and there are good elders just like there are bad people and good people....that's all I'm saying!

  Thanks HS! I've enjoyed reading your comments on this topic.

  ~Aztec
• 

  hillary_step

  Six,

  Thank you for your note.

  From what I've seen Hillary, you are very unique in your field of acquaintances. You've run with the movers and shakers in the org, and with celebrities outside the org. That is a very unusual perspective to be approaching this discussion. I'm not saying I disagree with your points, ( I haven't even read this thread from the beginning yet) but I do reckon that you must have to get far outside of your own experience to give this topic due respect.

  I Pioneered in a hell hole in Britain for ten years. The only shakers in it were the drunks in the shop doorways each morning. In local congregations I knew accountants, a CEO of a large corporation in London, not one but two top grade artists who taught themselves to paint while elders and got to the top, a man who left the RAF was appointed as an elder and started one of the largets logistics companies in our area employing over two hundred JW's, a young JW lad, who went on to play with leading bands albiet in session. This is just a snapshot of my thrity odd years as a JW. As a Special Pioneer, I moved to another country and found a very similar cross-section within all my local congregations, doctors, nurses, company owners, as well as janitors window-washers etc. I have not and did not lead a sheltered JW life. I put this account next to William's statement that In my experience, ?most elders are pathetic losers that can't get respect in the real world? and tell him that his statement does not bear scrutiny.

  It is tru that I have met 'mover's and 'shakers' in the WTS, but believe me Six, these people are not the ones that I would define as 'caring and loving', quite the contrary. These are the politicians in a heriarchy made of a few dozen men upon which the WTS floats its ship of fools. They do not represent the majority of elders, who are saints in comparison.

  Now JT also admits to knowing many elders who by William's statement are not 'pathetic losers who cant get respect in the real world'. How many more posters would need to step forward and admit that they also know elders who do not meet this definition before we accept that generalizations are just not going to work with this issue?

  From what I read in your post Six, you are attacking the system, I am speaking of these men as individuals, and I will not accept that 'all' or 'most' of them are unloving and uncaring as was suggested by many throughout this thread. I have met far too many that do not meet this description.

  Well, regardless of what we think, we must admit that this thread is a lot more interesting than those that ask, 'How old is your teenage dog?'.....lol

  Best regards - HS
• 

  hillary_step

  JT,

  i have never said that there are no good elders-

  Then we are in complete agreement! Some people have indicated the contrary in this thread, and it is to these that my posts are aimed. I guess it was comments such as this one that confused me :

  I think that the concept of a "good" elder is indeed a contridiction, much like i had mentioned a "good" SS stormtrooper is a contriction

  Aztec,

  Thanks HS! I've enjoyed reading your comments on this topic.

  As I have yours Aztec, and again thank you for insightful posts.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  yesidid

  Elders: Law enforcers or loving. What a strange question..

  Obviously there is some of each. In my experience the enforcers do not outnumber the loving ones.

  I just read this thread, and agree totally with all of Hillary?s observations.

  I was a part of the WT organization for the best part of sixty years and have relatives who were CO?s, a DO a bethelite, and elders [laid on].

  Among those there was a cad, an uncaring selfish cad. At least one is a very loving man who would have given his life for those in his care. He did in fact give up his health for them. Several are loving, caring men who sincerely believe they are serving God and do the best they can, given the constraints imposed by the society. There are also a few who give the impression that it?s a power/glory trip and some who are sincere but ineffective untrained position holders.

  I have also been in many congregations [lost count]. I have found the same thing.

  There are some who are just wonderful, some sincerely trying and being about as loving as the average ?good? person would be, and some very poor specimens of humanity.

  Many on this board seem to think it a badge of honor to malign all witnesses in every possible way.

  To them I ask ? Were you the only intelligent, loving, motivated, sensitive, perceptive

  Witness there ever was? When you left did you take all those qualities with you?

  yesidid