Elders - Law Enforcers or Loving (page 8)

Gadget

Are all elders unloving and uncaring?

No, but unless they toe the party line and fully enforce the rules, whatever their personal view, they don't stay as an elder for long.

hillary_step

Gadget,

Thank you for your note, and for answering the question at hand.

No, but unless they toe the party line and fully enforce the rules, whatever their personal view, they don't stay as an elder for long.

So we can agree that many elders are loving and caring even within the system, in your mind at least, for a while anyway. As I say, my experience is that even an enforcer of rules, can also have a loving heart and be a loving person, the tow are not mutually exclusive - ask any parent. My experience is also that many elders do not always toe the party line and enforce the rules, they work within the system to show great care and love for others. I have seen such ones at 4.00am holding the hand of dying friends, spending coutless hours through the night looking after alchoholics struggling with many issues, caring financially for others etc. etc. It is foolish to suggest, as the opening thread does, that such men do not exist within JW elders. We all know that the system is flawed, but despite this fact, love and care is not a rarity among elders as some have attested to in this thread.

It seems to escape the scrutiny of many that elders are human beings, capable of the full gamut of human experience and frailty. Some are loving and caring, others arrogant, some patient and merciful, others not. Some decent hard-working men, others not. In this they perhaps have something in common with the rest of the human race!

The idea of designing the label, 'elder', and stamping certain personal attributes on everybody who wears that label and that suit the particual emotional need of the hour is not just stupid, it is dangerous. This is the propaganda motor that drives the mob. Everybody who works within a system to some degree or the other loses part of their personal decsion-making aparatus, it comes with the territory. This is true in religions, business and every other social aspect of life. Look at the man within, not at the label it suits us to attach to them. After all, surely it is true that all Jews love money, that all blacks are shiftless jiggers and that putting a women in a position of authority is asking for trouble!

Best regards - HS

Gadget

It seems to escape the scrutiny of many that elders are human beings, capable of the full gamut of human experience and frailty. Some are loving and caring, others arrogant, some patient and merciful, others not. Some decent hard-working men, others not. In this they perhaps have something in common with the rest of the human race!

Yes elders are human beings. I personally know some elders who are the salt of the earth, and have done the things you describe. But how many elders do you know who have stepped down because they saw things they didn't like, or they were pressurised into doing so because they challanged another elder who they thought had acted wrong. Although I never held a position in a congregation I know where this has happened, how many more times would an ex-elder be aware of. If a lot of the nice elders end up standing down, or even on apostate sites like this because of the things they have learned, that doesn't leave very many nice elders still in the org while there are the still the same amount of not so nice ones.

Maverick

Dear HS: To answer your question, I do not think ALL or MOST Elders are unloving or uncaring. I do think that their love and care is made largely impotent by WTS policy. May you have piece, your servant Maverick

William Penwell

hillary_step,

I said in my comment that I found MOST elders are pathetic losers. Most of those that have high paying prestigious jobs made their name before they became dubs. I know form my own experience growing up as a dub that any initiative to get ahead was discouraged. Most of the elders that have some brains are only in it for the prestige of the position. Then you have the ones that I call losers that go along with the company line without question. Any elders that I have known that actually cared for the individual members were soon weeded or pushed out. I maybe showing my prejudice here do to that fact I am tired of all their meddling into my personal affairs. Also I have never got any sound advise form an elder. Their solution to everything is go to the meetings, study more and bang on doors.

Will

Aztec

Mischaracterizing all elders as one way or another does little good. My father tried very hard to be a good elder and although he was a crappy father he was a good elder (go figure). My grandfather went out of his way to help everyone in the congregation and I do mean everyone. When he was getting older and failing in health he told me about some of the things that he'd had to deal with (never mentioning names of course). My grandfather genuinely cared about those in the congregation. I know there are bad elders out there but to paint them all with a brush so broad is unfair! Sorry, but this is a sore spot with me.

~Aztec

hillary_step

Aztec,

Mischaracterizing all elders as one way or another does little good. My father tried very hard to be a good elder and although he was a crappy father he was a good elder (go figure). My grandfather went out of his way to help everyone in the congregation and I do mean everyone. When he was getting older and failing in health he told me about some of the things that he'd had to deal with (never mentioning names of course). My grandfather genuinely cared about those in the congregation. I know there are bad elders out there but to paint them all with a brush so broad is unfair! Sorry, but this is a sore spot with me.

Thank you, you reiterate my point exactly. It seems that many, who are perhaps still smarting from wounds inflicted by some elders, cannot take on board this most obvious of points that you make and that I have repeatedly posted in this thread. I am sure that this whole subject will be debated again in great detail at some other juncture.

William,

I said in my comment that I found MOST elders are pathetic losers.

While you are most entitled to your own opinion, you must also allow for tha fact that you may not be correct in your sweeping assumption. You certainly did not allow in the remainder of your post for even the slightest flexibility in your uncompromising statement. I have found some edlers to be pathetic losers, I have found many not to be so. In my trade outside of religion, I have many to be pathetic losers and others not. A person is not diminished by humble work, they are diminished by foolish statements such as the following :

Most of those that have high paying prestigious jobs made their name before they became dubs.

You seem unable to make your points without adding the word 'most' to your statements, perhaps the word 'some' might lend more credibility to the points that you make. I would have to say that 'most' of your statements in this matter do not withstand either common personal experience or practical scrutiny. I can name at least thirty elders that I personally know who landed what you call prestigious jobs well after they became JW's and I am sure that I am not unique in my field of aquaintances. I also know many elders who before they became JW's were 'pathetic losers' but after becoming a JW actually made something of their lives. Can you see a pattern emerging here William? Sweeping statements are the final recourse of the lazy thinker. As Aztec noted for example, it is quite possible that an elder may be a failure as a father and husband, but also have a loving heart - think about the implications of this fact.

Maverick,

Dear HS: To answer your question, I do not think ALL or MOST Elders are unloving or uncaring. I do think that their love and care is made largely impotent by WTS policy. May you have piece, your servant Maverick

Thank you Maverick for answering the question, the highlighted portion of which is the complete subject of my posts on this thread. All the aspects of the issue mentioned are not relevant to my point. I know the elder system stinks, eats good men for lunch, is cruel, unworkable etc. It is possible for all this to be so and for their still to be caring and loving elders as you now note. Armies train men to kill, yet some of the most loving and caring acts can be committed under fire. All soldiers are not uncaring and unloving, though some of course are!

Best regards - HS

William Penwell

My father tried very hard to be a good elder and although he was a crappy father he was a good elder (go figure).

I had a brother in law that was like that. As an elder he gave wonderful talks, put in lots of service time, helped out those in need in the congregation. As far as his family was concerned he was menatlly and phyiscally abusive. I feel that your number one priority should be your family. What does one gain if helps out everyone else but ignores his own family?

Will

JT

HS

JT

HS

Elders - Law Enforcers or Loving

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