Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Parousis

    • 37For just as the days of Noah were, so the parousia of the Son of man will be.38For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,39and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the parousia of the Son of man will be.

      • 12Consequently, my beloved ones, just as you have always obeyed, not only during my parousia but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.—Philipians 2:1,2
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Yeah, ignore the direct order of events explicitly stated about coming after the tribulation and provide a more abstruse passage and an entirely different passage about someone else. 🤦‍♂️

    First century Christians expected Jesus to return within a generation of his death. Their expectations failed and they’ve been making up alternative explanations ever since.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    “Yeah, ignore etc..”

    Disagree.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Fisherman:

    Disagree

    Compelling argument you have there 🤦‍♂️

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Jeffro, how do you explain the wording of "so the parousia of the Son of man will be ... as they were in those days before the flood" in the quote Fisherman made of Matthew 24:37-38? Perhaps we should focus on the "as they were" part to say it is about how the timing will be unexpected. Perhaps we should also emphasize that in the 1st century the word parousia also had the technical meaning of the coming/arrival or visit of a king or emperor (a meaning which the WT has acknowledged did exist). Most words have more than one meaning, and the context needs to be considered to determine what the meaning is in a specific incidence.

    The technical meaning also includes what takes place visually when the king arrives, and the biblical Jesus said people will see "the sign of the Son of man appear in heaven" and that people "will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven" [Matthew 24:30 (1984 NWT)]. Furthermore, the disciples asked what would would be the "sign of your [Jesus'] parousia" [see Matthew 24:3] and thus they might have meant parousia in the technical sense (including what people will see when they look at what is around Jesus), instead of in the sense that the WT uses it.

    For documentation, see the posts made by Leolaia 14 years ago at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/156634/watchtower-comments-generation-change-featuring-leolaia?page=19 . See also page 1577 in the first sentence of the last paragraph of section 5B of the Appendix of the 1984 Reference edition of the NWT.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The order of imagined events is already plainly indicated by verses 29 and 30, but verse 39 also clearly likens the coming of the flood itself to the ‘parousia’ rather than an extended period leading up to it.

    In the analogy, the period of time Christians would be living in is likened to the time before the flood, and the parousia is likened to the flood itself. The JW interpretations breaks the analogy, asserting that the time they would be living in is the parousia itself, leaving the coming of the flood left hanging without any corresponding element of the analogy. It is a plainly flawed interpretation.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Jeffro, I like your explanation, especially that you brought in verse 39 and that you say it shows that "the parousia is likened to the flood itself". But how can we get Fisherman and others to interpret/understand that way? Is what we said enough, or is more needed?

    Br. Charles Taze Russell and thus his WT organization got it wrong. How sad. Their influence also caused me to have it wrong for so long.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Cognitive dissonance prevents them from understanding it. They don’t care about things like valid structure of analogies. They need to get past their existing indoctrination first because their true reason for maintaining JW beliefs is emotional rather than logical.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Because of its doctrinal bias, the New World Translation is careful to dogmatically translate the 24 instances of the noun parousia (Strong’s G3952, presence or arrival) in the New Testament as ‘presence’ (23 times) or ‘present’ (once, but also as ‘presence’ in the original NWT). But it is less careful with the related verb pareimi (Strong’s G3918, to be present or to come) found 23 times in the New Testament:

    • 16 instances as present (Matthew 26:50; Luke 13:1; Acts 10:33; Acts 17:6; Acts 24:19; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 10:2; 2 Corinthians 10:11; 2 Corinthians 11:9; 2 Corinthians 13:2; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Galatians 4:18; Galatians 4:20; Hebrews 12:11; Hebrews 13:5; 2 Peter 1:12), all also as present in the old NWT
    • 2 instances as here (John 11:28; Acts 10:21), but both as present in the old NWT
    • 1 instance as arrived (John 7:6), but as present in the old NWT
    • 1 instance as came (Acts 12:20), also as came in the old NWT
    • 1 instance as with (1 Corinthians 5:3), but as present in the old NWT
    • 1 instance as has come (Colossians 1:6), but as has presented in the old NWT
    • 1 instance as lacking (2 Peter 1:9, negated by combination with Greek , Strong’s G3361), but as [not] present in the old NWT
  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Hi Jeffro. I thought of saying "Persia" instead of "Media-Persia" but I said the latter for the following reasons. (1) I think that a number of Christian books I've seen say "Media-Persia" (or Medo-Persia). (2) The book of Daniel says "the Medes and the Persians" and that wording made me wonder if a confederation (or alliance) of two countries were spoken of, namely of Media and Persia. However I think my wording might also be a holdover from the influence of WT literature I read since before age 10 which say "Medo-Persia". You are right though in saying that I should have said "Persia" instead. Daniel was probably speaking of ethic groups rather than kingdoms when he said "the Medes and the Persians".

    Regarding your claim that "there is no reason the author of Daniel would refer to the fall of the ‘Roman empire’ that didn’t even exist yet", it depends upon the purpose of of why Daniel wrote the prophecy (or hypothetically why God gave him the vision and an angel interpreted it for him). If it were partly to convince people over the centuries (including those who would live in the time of the end) that that Jehovah God exists, that God influences world events, and that God foresees the future, then it would make sense to include a prediction about the Roman Empire. However if the prophecy was given to give hope to Jewish people living in 2nd century B.C.E., that harsh gentile domination over the Jews would very soon end, and that God would soon (in the 2nd century B.C.E.) establish a kingdom of his own over the world, then it wouldn't make sense to refer to the Roman Empire and to times centuries beyond 164 B.C.E..

    Regarding your question of "Did you read the article I linked a few days ago?" in response to what I wrote (in the words which you quoted), the answer is as follows. When I made my comment I had stopped being confident that some Jews were using Daniel to calculate the arrival of the messiah in 26 C.E., 29 C.E., 30 C.E. or any similar year. Note that I included the phrase of "(assuming the WT's claim was correct)". As a result of what you had told me I had lost my confidence (in the idea of Jews making the calculation), but I said what I said so you would know why in an earlier post I said "about the year 30 C.E." instead of precisely "in the year 30 C.E.". I thought my post might give the wrong impression, so I tried to prevent that wrong impression from happening by also saying "(assuming the WT's claim was correct)".

    I have not yet downloaded the PDF of the article you linked to about the 70 weeks prophecy. That is because when I went to the download site I noticed that it required me to provide my email address (or access with a Facebook sign in or a Google sign in), but I am hesitant to provide such information to that site. However, at some point I probably will do so, after I evaluate the site and/or read some agreement form (if any) pertaining to accessing the file from the site, in order to determine how the site will use my personal information. Update: Today I discovered it can be read it online if I click on the link which expands the document to show all of the pages online. But, I noticed it is many pages long and I am not yet interested in reading all of the pages. However, I intend to at least browse the pages when I have more free time.

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