Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 483 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction: The above cited article about 29 AD - 33 CE was authored by Andreas Köstenberger instead of Justin Taylor, but Justin Taylor shares the same view regarding the dates.

    According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_J._K%C3%B6stenberger, Andreas Johannes Köstenberger is an evangelical scholar and is Research Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology and founding director of the Center for Biblical Studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.[1][2] See also https://www.mbts.edu/about/faculty/andreas-kostenberger/ .

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Following is the list of assumptions I accept for my interpretations of Daniel:

    1. Books that accurately describe details of past events were written after those events
    2. Daniel includes information that accurately describe events during the Seleucid period

    ---

    My assumptions are:

    1. Books that accurately describe past events are history were written after those events, those written before those events would be prophecy.

    2,. Daniel includes information that accurately describes events during the Babylonian Period from 617 BCE right up to the Roman World Power and beyond to the modern-day-'time of the end' from 1914 CE.

    ---

    Following is the list of assumptions 'scholar' accepts for his interpretations of Daniel:

    1. The universe had a cause
    2. The universe was caused by a conscious entity
    3. The entity was a deity
    4. The deity still exists (or at least continued to exist until the Neo-Babylonian period)
    5. The deity has some interest in the universe
    6. The deity has some interest in humans
    7. The deity interacts in some way with humans
    8. The deity is the God of the Abrahamic religions
    9. God imparts prophecies
    10. The book of Daniel contains prophecies imparted by God about future kingdoms (after the time of writing)
    11. Jehovah’s Witnesses’ interpretations of Daniel are correct, except where their own previous interpretations have been discarded, which were also correct until they weren't

    ---

    The unnamed deity has a name and His name is Jehovah.

    ---

    Once 'scholar' provides definitive proof (not fallacious appeals to tradition, incredulity or sentiment) for his list, I'll clear up any contested assumptions in my list. 🤣 For the sake of argument, I might be willing to grant point 1 in the list for 'scholar' even without definitive proof.

    ---

    So can I conclude that you are an atheist?

    You seem to be stalling, unable to provide reasons or facts for your claim that Daniel was a 2nd century composition and not of the 6th century BCE.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Disillusioned JW

    he various commentaries I read disagree with each other in regards to various particulars and it is very hard (in regards to various particulars) to determine the correct meaning of a number of scripture passages. Studying the Bible is thus wearisome to my mind.

    ---

    For this reason, you should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publications which have fully addressed the many issues that you raise then you will find Bible Study a joyful experience as I have done since 1958.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    The unnamed deity has a name and His name is Jehovah.

    (Tedious capitalisation of pronoun included 🤣.) Happy to list that between assumptions 8 and 9 for things you should definitively prove, though it is not a necessary assumption for your conclusions about the writing of Daniel, so you’re just making more work for yourself.. Get cracking on that list. 😂

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Disillusioned JW:

    I am an atheist (and thus I believe there is no such thing as divine inspiration) and as a result of my research I lean towards the belief that the book of Daniel was written in the 2nd century B.C.E (about the year 164 B.C.E.), but I am not certain it was written then. Furthermore, I think that the second kingdom referred to in Daniel chapter two is Media-Persia instead of Media; that the third kingdom referred to is Greece (and its subsequent break up, in stages, into the the Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms) instead of Persia; and that the fourth kingdom is Rome (whether in the form of the Republic of Rome, the Roman Empire, or a combination of both).

    The ‘silver’ kingdom is actually much more likely… Babylon. Daniel explicitly says the ‘gold’ kingdom is not simply Babylon, but specifically Nebuchadnezzar, and that the kingdom after him would be inferior. The ‘copper’ kingdom is Persia (only religious people say Medo-Persia and Media-Persia is only slightly better). Then Greece (‘iron’), then the divided kingdoms including the Seleucids and Ptolemies (‘clay/iron’). Even if it were possible, there is no reason the author of Daniel would refer to the fall of the ‘Roman empire’ that didn’t even exist yet, which is a religious superstition only, especially Daniel 11 is very clearly all about events only up until Antiochus Epiphanies IV.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Disillusioned JW:

    That is because I didn't know the precise time period when the Jews were looking for the Messiah based upon calculations of Daniel (assuming the WT's claim was correct), and because I also didn't remember for certain the precise year (whether calculated by the WT or by various non-JW scholars - and scholars disagree as to what year Jesus began his ministry) began. It doesn't matter to me if the year was 26 C.E. or 30 CE.

    There is no evidence that anyone in the early first century was using Daniel to calculate the arrival of the messiah in 26, 29, 30 or any similar year. The early ‘church fathers’ didn’t even suggest such a thing until the late second century. (Did you read the article I linked a few days ago?)

    Insufficient time right now for full details but 30 (or 29) is insisted by some religious people because of the tradition that he was born closer to ‘0AD’ and also because of Christian interpretations of the ‘70 weeks’.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Jeffro regarding your advice to me that I "... should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publication", I have studied many of their publications. I was raised as a JW from infancy, enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School at age 8, became baptized at age 15, became a ministerial servant at age 19 (shortly after I began attending college), became a regular pioneer at just before age 22 (a few months before receiving my Bachelor Science of Degree in Business Administration), and eventually gave some public talks. But during that long time period I did not "... find Bible Study a joyful experience". Furthermore, from teen years onward I noticed that the WT on numerous times changed their teachings, resulting in them declaring their abandoned teachings as false, though previously saying that JWs could not speak against those teachings without being considered an apostate and thus shunned by JWs.

    A number of times while I was an JW I noticed that some of WT's then current teachings were problematic and that much of their reasoning is illogical, misleading, and highly manipulative, but because I was baptized by them and felt pressured to remain an active JW, I pushed to the back of my mind the problems I saw regarding some WT teachings. Instead of Bible study, I wanted to spend my time in secular pursuits, such as studying science and inventions and trying to invent something myself, and trying to make a lot of money in the stock market. Eventually starting in 1995 I started seeing major problems with some core teachings of the WT (including their claim of the governing body being anointed by Jehovah and God) and thus in about 2001 I stopped being active as a JW and began independent study of the Bible. I also began collecting very old WT books (including ones by Rutherford an Russell) and began seeing to a great extent what they reveal about the degree of credibility of the WT's claim of being chosen by Jehovah God as his instrument and his channel of communication.

    During my independent study I started enjoying Bible study because I was free to study about the Bible what I wanted, and the way I wanted, and was free to reject teachings which seemed false to me. But after I started seeing numerous major problems with even the Bible, after I discovered that biological evolution is true and that there never was a global flood on Earth, and after I discovered that Jehovah God and a supernatural Jesus Christ are both unreal, I began loosing my joy in studying the Bible. I am thus now at the point where I consider ceasing all study of the Bible, but my desire to convince others to become atheistic naturalists compels me to continuing studying the Bible (so I can reveal problems of the Bible effectively to others). I am trying to ween myself from studying the Bible, much as I have mostly weened myself from studying WT literature.

    However, very recently by studying some old WT very carefully I can now see and understand why the WT's major writers (including Rutherford and Franz) concluded what they did on certain matters. As a result some of what they wrote seem much more strongly supported than what I had concluded before, but those teachings still seem to have major problems. For example, the idea that Christ is has been king (invisibly) since 1914 C.E. still seems to be false.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Get cracking on that list. 😂

    ---

    No, you should get cracking on providing proof for your opinion that Daniel was of the 2nd century. Stop stalling and get on with it!!!

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Disillusioned JW

    Jeffro regarding your advice to me that I "... should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publication", I have studied many of their publications. I was raised as a JW from infancy, enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School at age 8, became baptized at age 15, became a ministerial servant at age 19 (shortly after I began attending college), became a regular pioneer at just before age 22 (a few months before receiving my Bachelor Science Degree in Business Administration), and later gave some public talks. But during that long time period I did not "... find Bible Study a joyful experience". Furthermore, from teen years onward I noticed that the WT on numerous times changed their teachings, resulting in them declaring their abandoned teachings as false, though previously saying that JWs could not speak against those teachings without being considered an apostate and thus shunned by JWs. A number of times why I was an JW I noticed that some of WT's then current teachings were problematic, but because I was baptized by them and felt pressured to remain an active JW, I pushed to the back of my mind the problems I saw regarding some WT teachings. Instead of Bible study, I wanted to spend my time in secular pursuits, such as studying science and inventions and trying to invent something myself, and trying to make a lot of money in the stock market. Eventually starting in 1995 I started seeing major problems with some core teachings of the WT teachings (including their claim of the governing body being anointed by Jehovah) and God) and thus in about 2001 I stopped being active as a JW and began independent study of the Bible. I also began collecting very old WT books (including ones by Rutherford an Russell) and seeing what they reveal about the degree of credibility of the WT's claim of being chosen by Jehovah God as his instrument and his channel of communication.

    During my independent study I started enjoying Bible study because I was free to study about the Bible what I wanted, the way I wanted, and was free to reject teachings which seemed false to me. But after I started seeing numerous major problems with even the Bible, after I discovered that biological evolution is true and that there never was a global flood on Earth, and after I discovered that Jehovah God and a supernatural Jesus Christ are both unreal, I began loosing my joy in studying the Bible. I am thus now at the point where I consider ceasing all study of the Bible, but my desire to convince others to become atheistic naturalists compels me to continuing studying the Bible (so I can reveal problems of the Bible effectively to others). I am trying to ween myself from studying the Bible, much as I have mostly weened myself from studying WT literature.

    ---

    I am saddened to read of your experience but sadly your journey is typical of many former Witnesses. It would appear that you have dug an 'intellectual grave ' for yourself and have not developed the necessary tools to build up your faith.

    My experience as an active Witness for 60 years is one of developing an inquiring mind and independent thinking reinforced by a deep knowledge of the Bible and WT Theology along with a passion for Philosophy. I have acquired Degrees in Religious Studies and Philosophy as a mature age student and was in the habit of doing much research at a local theological seminary library dealing with many questions and issues raise whilst pioneering.

    I have debated at some length with Jewish rabbis of an ultra orthodox sect of Judaism- Hasidim over the Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks of years and many other subjects to boot. One prominent rabbi was an academic-Dean of the Faculty of Mathematics who gave me a copy of a scientific paper published in a leading journal disproving Evolution on the basis of statistics.

    By means of my academic studies and consulting widely all of the leading Bible commentaries- Catholic, Jewish, Protestant and Evangelical that the Witnesses do indeed have the 'Truth' and are the True religion despite the many challenges that confront the nature of discipleship.In addition one of the most important tools in scholarship is access to academic Journals which have always for many decades formed a large part of my Theocratic Toolbox. In short, my Toolbox includes WT Publications- past and present, major Bible Commentaries and Academic Journals.

    This is where our critics and apostates fail in that they lack the scholarship or the academic tools in order to defend their faith or uphold their faith and that is not only a problem for you but for the likes of Jeffro and the late Alan F- May he rest in peace!!

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Disillusioned JW:

    Jeffro regarding your advice to me that I "... should consider carefully the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses by means of their publication",

    Haha. I think you have incorrectly attributed someone else’s comment to me. 🤣

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