Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 490 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    scholar said something which supports the idea that Christ's presence starts before the great tribulation. Before I explain that I provide the following context.

    On page 13 of this topic thread I said the following as part of a reply to Jeffro. "I noticed that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 (which is described as happening in Judea) is very different from the tribulation of Revelation and of the bowl's of wrath mentioned in Revelation. It is very difficult to correlate Revelation with Matthew chapter 24."

    On page 14 of this topic thread scholar made a reply to Vanderhoven7 which besides addressing something Vanderhoven7 said, also pertains to whether the great tribulation follows or precedes the presence of Christ. There scholar said the following. "The book of Revelation with the Four Horsemen which nicley parallel those significant events discussed earlier in the Olivet Discourse ....".

    How is Revelation related to the debate mentioned? [Note: the following quotes are from the 1984 NWT.] Well in Matthew 24:6-8 Jesus says what is to take place before the end. There he mentions wars in one place after another, food shortages, and earthquakes, and says such are "a beginning of pangs of distress". The parallel passage in Luke 21:11 amplifies this by also saying there will be pestilences. Furthermore, Luke 21:9 says "... these things must take place first, but the end does not [occur] immediately." Jesus indicates that such are to happen before the great tribulation, for in verse 9 of Matthew chapter 24 he says "Then people will deliver you up to tribulation". Still later, after he says the disgusting thing that causes desolation will be seen, in verse 21 he says "for then there will be great tribulation". Still later in 27 he says "so the presence of the son of man will be." The comment in verse 27 can be understood as meaning that after the great tribulation occurs, the presence of Christ will begin, but the specific wording in verse 27 can also be understood as saying that the presence of the Christ will be while the events of Matthew 24:6-26 are taking place, including visible people on Earth being falsely proclaimed as the Christ!

    Now I tie in what Revelation says about the ride of the four horsemen. Revelation 6:2 mentions a rider on a white horse with a crown and conquering. Verses 3-4 mention a second rider on a horse, one who takes peace away from the earth so that people slaughter one another. Verses 5-6 mention a third rider on a horse, one who proclaims high prices for the basic food staples, thus indicating food shortages. Verses 7-8 mention a fourth rider on a horse, one who will bring death resulting from violence to people, from food shortage, and from deadly plague [it also says from wild beasts]. Revelation 6:3-8 thus well correlate with Matthew 24:7,12 and Luke 21:11! After the description of these events Revelation 7:14 speaks of those who "... come out of the great tribulation". Revelation 7:14 thus ties in with Matthew 24:21.

    In the above verses we thus see a consistent sequence of events, with what is described in Revelation 6:3-8 being well correlated with Matthew 24:7,12 and Luke 21:11. But what about the first rider on a white horse, the one mentioned in Revelation 6:2, whose rider is mentioned as being noticed before the other three riders? What is the identity of this rider whose is wearing a crown that was given to him, who also went forth conquering? Well Revelation 19:11 speaks of a white horse with rider upon it who "is called Faithful and True" and who "judges and carries on war in righteousness" and verse 13 says "he is called The Word of God" (and the Gospel of John identifies the Word of God as Jesus Christ). Furthermore, Revelation 14:14 says that on "a white cloud" is 'someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown". Well in the gospel of Matthew Jesus Christ refers to himself as the Son of man and in Matthew 24:30 Jesus says that "the Son of man" will be seen "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Regarding Revelation 6:2 saying the rider of the white horse "went forth conquering" Revelation 17:14 says that "the Lamb ... because he is Lord of lords and King of kings" will conqueror the ten kings. We know from other verses that according to the Bible Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings and that he will conqueror human "kings" and their governments. As result, the rider white of the horse mentioned in Revelation 6:2 must be Jesus Christ according to the Bible.

    Furthermore, it appears as a result of analysis of scriptures in Matthew and Revelation that are highly correlated with each other, the Bible is saying that Christ was foretold to become crowned as king and to begin a conquest before the signs of: nations fighting nation in place after place, and food shortages and pestilences in place after place, and BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION all begin, and that during this time people on Earth won't literally see Jesus Christ! It thus seems to also support the idea that Christ will be thus be present literally unseen before the great tribulation begins and before he comes noticeably/detectably to all people of the Earth. Furthermore, when did our world first experience a large number of nations fighting each other at the same time - in the same war? It was during the Great War (later called the World War 1) from 1914-1918!

    It thus looks like I might have been wrong in thinking that the scriptures say Christ's presence comes after the great tribulation. It looks like scholar and the WT thus might be right that the Bible says the presence of Christ is initially invisible and begins before the great tribulation. Such an idea is a shock to me since it is the opposite of what I deduced about 22 years ago as an independent Christian (or even about 5 years earlier while I was still an active JW).

    Regarding references in Matthew 24:20 pertaining to "YOUR flight" and to "on the sabbath day" in our modern day there are Christians living in Jerusalem, even likely some Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, recently JW.org announced that the entire NWT has been translated into modern Hebrew and is now available and that there are Hebrew speaking JW. The JW website says there are 2,021 JW "Ministers who teach the Bible" in Israel. Thus from a biblical perspective, could be a future secondary fulfillment of Christians needing to flee Jerusalem and Judea before a future great tribulation starts.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    The point is that the people in Noah's day were carrying on as normal totally unaware of the coming deluge

    They should have taken note that a deluge was coming. Noah was building an ark in plain sight

    Don’t throw the rest of the Bible away again

    In a time that you think not, the Son of Man will come.


    • “36Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

    • So, during the parousia, there are signs, events that they would see occur so they aren’t unaware, but what they don’t know is the time of the climax of the parousia when the son of man is revealed.
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    “all the time making supplication”

    This ties in with Jesus’s literary device to pray that your flight doesn’t occurr on the Sabbath, etc.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    DJW

    “Brevity is the soul of wit.” —Polonius

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    @ Fisherman,

    All Christians should be aware that the Parousia will happen and be ready when it does. But the timing can not be anticipated. And when it does occur no one will be wondering if it happened or not.

    THE OLIVET DISCOURSE; Parallels: Luke 21:7, Mark 13:4

    CENTRAL QUESTION:

    Is it possible that Matthew 24 (verses 1-35) was entirely fulfilled in the first century?


    Which "generation" was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34? (the time text)

    - To which generation was Christ referring in Matthew 23:36?

    - If the judicial sentence & prophetic woe of Mat.23:36
    applies to Christ's generation, would not the exact same
    terminology in Mat.24:34 have the same application?

    CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:

    a. "all these things" were to happen to the 20th century generation exclusively.

    • Impossible: conversation centers on "these stones" which were knocked down in 70 AD.

    • Impossible Lu.21:23-24 states that subsequent to great distress, Jews were to be led captive to all nations which occurred immediately after the 70 AD destruction.


    b. "all these things" were to happen to both Christ's generation and our generation. (dual fulfillment theory)

    - Impossible: -these buildings and are already destroyed.

    - Impossible -Jews are not to be led captive into all nations again at Christ's second coming.

    - Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.


    c. "all these things" were to happen to Christ's generation exclusively.

    • Hmmm...possible only if it can be shown that "all these things" declared before verse 34 actually did happen to the generation Jesus addressed ?

    QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?

    ANSWER: Absolutely!


    To disprove this conclusion one would have to find something in verses 1-35 that clearly did not happen in the first century A.D.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Vanderhoven7, while Matthew chapter 24 probably was meant to entirely be fulfilled in the 1st century CE, and that Revelation was probably meant to be fulfilled before the revolt of Simon bar Kokhba, it means the scriptures partially failed. That is partly because the human governments have not been replaced by one government with Christ as king over every human. It is also because of what I state below.

    I noticed that you say to that disprove your conclusion, namely that which you list as option "c.", "one would have to find something in verses 1-35 that clearly did not happen in the first century A.D.". I found somethings which which meet that test. Namely, what is described in Matthew 24:30-31 have not happened yet! People have not seen "the Son of man coming on clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Likewise Christ, by means of his angels (by the way, does that suggest Christ is in some sense an archangel in charge of other angels? Rev. 12:7 says Michael has angels under his command), has not gathered the chosen ones "from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity." Furthermore the tribulation of 70 CE was not as great as that of the latter part of the Sion bar Kokhba's revolt/war with the Romans (which ended in about 135 CE). That means that Matthew 24:21 was not fully fulfilled in the 1st century CE, since the latter part of that verse says that there would be a great tribulation of such tremendous magnitude that it would not occur again (meaning it would not be exceeded or equaled by another). Yet what happened in about 135 CE was greater in impact upon the Jews than what happened in 70 CE, and the Nazi holocaust was even more tremendous upon the Jews.

  • Jammer
    Jammer

    Vanderhoven7 said,

    Note that Jesus ' Parousia would take place in normal times, while unsuspecting people were having fun, not during a world War.

    Then you quoted Mathew 24:36-24. You bolded verses 36, 39,42, and 44. I'm wondering what part of MT. 24 leads you to believe that the parousia occurs during 'normal times' - while people are having fun?

  • Jammer
    Jammer

    Vanderhoven7 said,

    QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?
    ANSWER: Absolutely!

    My answer would be absolutely not. The entire chapter is Jesus' response to this 3-part question...

    When shall these things be? What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Most of Jesus' response is about the parousia and the end of the age which comes about 2,000 years in the future from when these words were spoken.

    The questions came from this quote from Jesus...

    "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

    Here's a problem. Jesus said, "See ye not all these things"

    The Western wall is the only thing standing today that Jesus and his disciples saw themselves.

    What generation was Jesus talking about?

    The generation that SEES all the things pass that Jesus mentions between verses 3 and 31.Jesus uses a fig tree to illustrate...

    Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Many people associate the gathering/rapture with verses 40-41. They believe - where one is taken and one left - the two in the field and two women grinding, represents the same event as the gathering Jesus mentions in verses 29-31.

    Verses 40-41 represent the judgment of nations, AKA the separation of the sheep and goats. That judgment determines WHO enters the 1,000 years. One enters and the other is destroyed.

    That's the way I see it anyway.


  • Jammer
    Jammer

    Disillusioned JW said,

    On page 13 of this topic thread I said the following as part of a reply to Jeffro. "I noticed that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 (which is described as happening in Judea) is very different from the tribulation of Revelation and of the bowl's of wrath mentioned in Revelation. It is very difficult to correlate Revelation with Matthew chapter 24."

    The tribulation mentioned in Mathew 24 is the same as that mentioned in Revelation. It's just Mathew 24 focuses on Jerusalem because it is a 'burdensome stone' and Israel is the central focus of prophecy. And all but maybe one of the disciples were Jewish. The anti-Christ, AKA the 'abomination of desolation', authenticates himself on the Temple Mount.

    The region of the Middle East is the main area of conflict and Judgment. That does not mean that the rest of the planet does not endure tribulation.

    The problem with interpreters (esp. evangelicals) is they think the anti-Christ will be a global dictator who is represented in Daniel 7's fourth beast and represented by the Revelation 13 and 17 beast. I say they are all different end-time 'beast'.


  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    But the timing can not be anticipated.

    Hi Van

    Daniel 9 predicted the timing when Messiah would come in the first century. The 7x prophecy predicted 1914. Revelation explains the horses of the apocalypse and the birth of the kingdom and ousting of Satan and other parts of the Bible also explain events that occur during the Parousia connected the end of the Gentile times. But the proof of the Parousia to Christians is Math 24, etc: WWI, famine, preaching— which seems ordinary. Trying to keep it brief.

    And when it does occur no one will be wondering if it happened or not.

    You trashed again what Jesus said about Noah’s days:

    Where is this promised Parousia of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

    This applies to ridiculers who refuse to see and will be shown when Jesus is revealed.

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