Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 501 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • scholar
    scholar

    Vanderhoven 7

    Why reference an apostate (Furuli) to support your organization's multiple assumption speculation.

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    Why not? Furuli notwithstanding his current status remains a scholar who has done much fine work in Chronology so would be considered an expert in this and other related subjects.

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    As I said, I concur with the New Testament....not a man-made, man-run organization that never got a single prophecy right.

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    I concur with the entire Bible as God's Word as my authority.

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    Can you list for me what you know are false or misapplied interpretations of Biblical prophecy made by your organization followed by a list of all the clearly correct interpretations of Biblical prophecy they have made?

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    That may well be a long list and I am sure that you would have such a list but one thing is for certain is that our Organization or Church has done two things unlike all others:

    1. Have a long history of 'Keeping on the Watch' or as one scholar describes practising

    Christian Watchfulness.

    2. Have an Eschatology based on the prophecies from the OT and NT

    scholar JW



  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    When it comes to books about the Bible (including theology) produced for public (often at very low prices) the WTS, the publisher of the LDS, and the publishers of the SDA to to me to produce by far the most literature. But which Christian publishers, if any, produce more such literture? Also, which Christian publishers produce far better Bible literature for the general public than the WTS, while at the same time in large quantities?

    Are Zondervan, Thomas Neslson, and Holman in that group and maybe Abingdon? What about Oxford and Cambridge? It seems to me they produce books by a large number of authors, since they are not specific to any particular religion of Christianity. In order to get a consistent Christian message, perhaps I should ask which publisher of a specific church/denomination of Christianity produces the best doctrinal literature about the Bible.

  • ThomasMore
    ThomasMore

    Fisherman actually identified the spin Watchtower started using when this was presented to them years ago.

    WT claims that Satan was thrown out of heaven in October 1914

    Fisherman: Don’t think WT now teaches that. “circa 1914” not 1914 as discussed in another thread

    This subtle change was never fully addressed but gave Watchtower an out on the sequence of events that lead to WW1. They are a slippery sort when it comes to rationality. I don't agree with their reasoning nor with 1914 doctrine, but I have to give them credit for the curve ball they pitched to get themselves out of that mess of a timing dilemma. Using their reasoning allows Satan to be evicted 10 months prior to the establishment of the Kingdom (supposedly in October of 1914). The question is: Does any JW actually care? Very few are able to explain the lunacy of the overlapping generation so why would they care if Satan got tossed out months before the Kingdom was established. They just accept it and order another drink.

  • ThomasMore
    ThomasMore

    Vanderhoven said (and he is correct).

    "Witnesses contend that Satan caused the First World War out of anger for being cast down. However, he was cast down in October of 1914 according to WTS interpretation, and yet the war began in August of that year and preparations for the war had been going on for a considerable time before that, as early as 1911. That would mean he had to get angry before he was cast down and the woe to the earth began before he was cast down."

    JWs love to point to the coincidence and say "SEE! We were right all along!" But the facts are (1) it was years later after 1914 that they adopted the current narrative. Revisionist history at its best! (2) They no longer stand behind war in heaven in October of 1914, but their crafty explanation of "circa" is not broad enough to address the real history of the buildup to WW1 which started years prior to 1914. (3) To this day, they refuse to address the establishment of Israel as a nation born in one day in May, 1948. Why? It simply does not fit their clumsy narrative.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Thomas More

    Followed your last two posts with interest and agree with your sentiment.

    I’m intrigued by your final point:

    To this day, they refuse to address the establishment of Israel as a nation born in one day in May, 1948. Why? It simply does not fit their clumsy narrative.

    Can you elaborate?

    Cheers,

    Ozzie 🍷

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    They are a slippery sort when it comes to rationality.

    Not so. It was WT that published this nuance for all to see. And it was I who disclosed it on this Forum in all openness. I did not conceal this.Other religious systems are the slippery ones who refuse to admit when they are wrong. WT admits that they are learning.That is why since crossword puzzles were invented circa1914, wt has been solving it in pencil not in ink. But as scholar pointed out, the Gentile Times ended in 1914.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Fisherman and Scholar.

    There is no credible scriptural evidence for Christ being enthroned in 1914. You mentioned Daniel 2:44. Adam Maarschalk has a great article on this demonstrating that Jesus kingdom rule began in the first century. Note the scholarly exegesis he provides:

    "Daniel 2:44 is indeed a pivotal verse, as it states clearly the timing for the setting up of God’s eternal kingdom:

    And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.”

    As many scholars agree, Rome was the fourth kingdom depicted in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision. Rome was preceded by Nebuchadnezzar’s own Babylonian kingdom (#1), Medo-Persia (#2), and Greece (#3). These were successive empires, and the Roman empire ceased to exist in 476 AD (Sources: BBC History, History Learning Site, Rome.Info, Wikipedia, About.com’s Ancient History). Daniel, a true and faithful prophet, recorded that God’s kingdom would be set up before all four of those kingdoms ceased to exist.

    By the year 600 AD the final earthly kingdom revealed in Nebuchadnezzar’s vision had been gone for more than 100 years. By 1500 AD that fourth kingdom had already been gone for a full millennium (1000 years). What are we to make, then, of popular teachings which say that, as of the year 2014, God has not yet set up His kingdom? We are now 1538 years beyond the parameters of Daniel’s prophecy: “And in the days of these kings…” If God’s kingdom has not yet been established, it would seem that Daniel was not a true prophet.

    The problem, however, is not with Daniel, but rather with premillennialism and any other school of thought which says that God’s kingdom is not yet here, or that when it comes it will take on earthly characteristics (e.g. a temple and a spiritual headquarters in Jerusalem, Israel) that the world has not yet seen.

    Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21).

    Daniel 7 Reveals the Timing of the Kingdom

    Coming back to Daniel, he later had a vision of four beasts, the fourth of which was “dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong,” and having 10 horns (Daniel 7:7). Daniel also foresaw “One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heavento the Ancient of Days – a picture of Jesus’ ascension.

    I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed” (Daniel 7:13-14).

    In the rest of the chapter, Daniel sees or is told three times that the kingdom would be given into the hands of the saints:

    But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever” (verse 18).

    I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom” (verses 21-22).

    Then the saints shall be given into [the fourth beast’s] hand for a time and times and half a time. But the court shall be seated, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and destroy it forever. Then the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him” (verses 25-27).

    Parallel to this is Revelation 13:1-8, where John also saw a beast with 10 horns speaking blasphemous things and making war with the saints and overcoming them for 42 months (which is equal to 3.5 years, and also equal to Daniel’s “time and times and half a time”). In our study of Revelation, we saw how this was fulfilled in Nero and his 3.5 year campaign of persecution against Christians in the Roman empire from November 64 AD – June 68 AD (see here and here). In Daniel 7 then, we first see that Jesus received the kingdom immediately after His ascension, and then we see that God’s kingdom was set up and given into the hands of His people during the days of the fourth kingdom/beast, Rome.

    The Gospels Reveal the Timing of the Kingdom

    John the Baptist and Jesus, in their day, repeatedly proclaimed that the kingdom of God was at hand. Then Jesus told His disciples (Matthew 16:27-28) and the crowds (Mark 8:34-9:1) that He would come in His kingdom while some of them were still alive.

    For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matt. 16:27-28; see also Matthew 10:23).

    In Luke 21 Jesus described a series of events which were to occur before the temple would fall (Luke 21:5-7) and before His generation would pass away (Luke 21:32). According to Jesus, when His disciples saw those things take place, they could be sure that God’s kingdom was near.

    Then He spoke to them a parable: ‘Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near” (Luke 21:29-31).

    Matthew 21: The Parable of the Tenants

    The Parable of the Tenants (Matthew 21:33-46) is also important in regard to when God’s kingdom was to be established, and we see in this parable a parallel to Daniel 7. Jesus, speaking to the chief priests and elders of the people (Matt. 21:23), exposes the vinedressers (the stewards) of God’s vineyard for their long-term persecution, beating, and killing of God’s servants, and for finally conspiring to kill Him and attempt to seize His inheritance. Jesus continued the discussion in this way:

    “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:40-44).

    Jesus thus proclaimed that the kingdom would be taken away from the corrupt Jewish religious leaders at the time of their judgment for shedding the blood of God’s saints and God’s Son. (This judgment was to fall upon Jesus’ own generation, according to Matthew 23:29-37.) It was at this time that the kingdom would be given to a fruit-bearing nation, the church.

    As in Daniel 2, Jesus is the rock that crushes His opponents. In this case, faithless Israel, except for a remnant, had set itself up in opposition to Him, and the Rock would fall and “grind him to powder.” This happened with the destruction of Jerusalem, Israel, and the temple in 70 AD. At the same time, Jesus is a mighty Rock and fortress for those who trust in Him.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Van,

    I debunked your belief with my posts citing scriptures showing Jesus was not enthroned in 33. Again, Scholar substantiated 607. WT belief in 1914 is solidly based. It hasn’t been falsified yet. You can have your belief too and si can others.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Fisherman,

    You debunked nothing. Merely asserting speculation is not proof of anything. 1914 is solidly based in your mind perhaps, but not in scripture. Can you falsify that Jesus second advent did not occur in 1934?

  • scholar
    scholar

    Vanderhoven 7

    There is no credible scriptural evidence for Christ being enthroned in 1914. You mentioned Daniel 2:44. Adam Maarschalk has a great article on this demonstrating that Jesus kingdom rule began in the first century. Note the scholarly exegesis he provide

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    The credible evidence that Christ was enthroned in 1914 is the fact that we are seeing the Sign of His Presence which he details and all of those things are clearly visible since 1914 CE. Who is this Adam Maarschalk and please present his exegesis in full for snippets do not mean much? Further, what is this person's view as to when Daniel was written for his belief on this matter would underpin his interpretation?

    -- Dan. 2: 44 and vs 45 climaxes that prophetic vision so it would be fulfilled long after the fall of the Roman Empire being fulfilled at the time of the feet of the image, a Power that would be of iron and clay so his interpretation is well off the beaten track amounting to nonsense.

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    Jesus thus proclaimed that the kingdom would be taken away from the corrupt Jewish religious leaders at the time of their judgment for shedding the blood of God’s saints and God’s Son. (This judgment was to fall upon Jesus’ own generation, according to Matthew 23:29-37.) It was at this time that the kingdom would be given to a fruit-bearing nation, the church.

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    Are you now saying that the Kingdom of God is the Church? If so what is the Church today in order to qualify as God's Kingdom?

    You have some BIG questions to answer!!!

    scholar JW


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