JW and the Sabbath

by Andromeda 103 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • TheWonderofYou

    You refer to a point that I often rethink but latelty I always get to a point where I accept both meanings side-by side, the notion of the Jews today, who say they are under the convenant even today and the notion of the RC church who says the church is body of christ, new people of god.

    The church doesnt use as far as I know the term "Israelites" or "spiritual israelites" for the body of christ like Jehovas witnesses and perhaps other little similar theologians.

    When Paul spoke about the olive tree, and used the picture to show that people of nations could be nourished from the abrahamic root, The olive tree is not the same as the "Israelites"

    The usage of the term "israelite" for the body of christ I see as problematic. "people of God" okay, its a picture, that shows that in Christ all men shall become one people.

    but there IS one "israel"...galatians 3:28.

    In Galatians 3:28 Paul says that there is neither Jew nor Greek today in Christ, it doesnt say that it is one "israel".
    This does not mean that all people of nations become Israelites, just as little as it means that all jews become Greek.

    Instead of becoming part of Israel, Paul announces a new creature, the body of Christ that consists of two parts:

    1. of Jews (Israelites) from the nations and circumcised, Christians and therefore "true beliefers"

    2. and christians of nations.


    What happens is that

    The true believing Jews are becoming Part of the body of Christ

    and not reverse that the body of Christ becomes part of the Jews or "a spiritual nation Israel".

    Galatians 6,16

    15For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule,even to the Israel of God. 17From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.…

    "Israel of God" here seems to refer not to all true believers, but to those believers from Israel who took refuge in Christ. The first sentence refers to beliefers of the nations, and the "israel of god" seem to be the the jewish saints not simple all Israelites according to the letter.

    Instead of becoming part of Israel, Paul announces a new creature, the body of Christ.
    “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace” –Ephesians 2:15
    Out of two groups, Jews and Gentiles, Christ made a new man and agency for salvation. This special agency is what we become when we are saved today. We do not know any man after the flesh, whether it is Israel or American or European (2 Cor 5:16).
    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” – 2 Cor 5:17

    To think of being part of "spiritual Israel" is like always referring always to being part of nation after flesh nethertheless, like remainin in the "people" thinking.

    whereas the body of christ is a new man, a spiritual body (not nation) . Therefore I dont like the term "spiritual Israel".



    Some thoughts refer to the wegpage of graceambassadors fellowship http://graceambassadors.com/prophecy/israel/does-the-bible-teach-a-spiritual-israel )


  • TheWonderofYou

    But I should have found back to the Sabbath subject again after my extensive look at the "nation Israel". And you mentioned the "sons of God" as being the same as "Israel". I dont have a head for this now and I am going swimming now, after all 30 *C today.

  • TD


    No blood by any means.

    Have you ever had a tetanus booster after an injury?

    Growing up, did you receive the battery of childhood immunizations including but not limited to DPwT, MMR and Varicella?

    Have you ever been bitten by a poisonous snake or spider; stung by a scorpion, etc?. If so, did you accept an antivenin injection?

    Have you ever traveled abroad? If so, what immunizations did you accept?

    Also I went to medical school

    If this is true, then I'm sure you understand the point of the questions above. The JW position on blood is untenable in the modern world without an artificial, post hoc definition of the term, "blood."

    Since 1958, the JW's have advanced four separate and distinct definitions, all of them seriously flawed. Under the current policy, a JW who voluntarily accepts a transfusion of plasma solution has broken God's "law" while a JW who voluntarily accepts a transfusion of albumin solution is simply exercising their conscience, which is an irony that I'm sure is not lost here in view of your medical training...

  • TheWonderofYou

    Is the NWT really the only bible that gives in Gal. 6,16 the impression that christians replace Israel and are now the new Israel of God ?

    Whereas according to other Bibles like the old KJV or Luther-bible Paul sends blessings to all saints AND to Israel ...
    " And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God"

    the holy NWT changed its former text that again that read "even upon the Israel of God" to the new "yes, upon the Israel of God", what gives the impression that Pauls words where only meant for the New spiritual Israel.

    Was Luther not able to translate the bible correctly .....the greek words:

    καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ?

    Look my google translates even this bible passage quite good and better than NWT!!

    Okay here is a study of a baptisst about this that even supports the JW view. Obviously even this "and" can be interpreted in different ways but it should it be translated otherwise?


  • Viviane
    Altogether ignoring the millions of peoples' lives that have been saved through a blood transfusion.

    Very true. Using Andromeda's reasoning, it is safe to conclude that all Christians are dangerous pedophiles because some are.

  • Onager

    And having reached 10 pages of comments the troll retreats back under it's bridge, happy and content in another job well done...

  • nicolaou
    ...well maybe you wish to live now but I prefer to live the real life in the future

    Is that the 'real life' built on the blood, bones and broken dreams of 7 billion slaughtered men, women and children?

    How lovely.

  • OrphanCrow
    TheWonderofYou: Is the NWT really the only bible that gives in Gal. 6,16 the impression that christians replace Israel and are now the new Israel of God ?

    That is really easy to check, Wonder.

    The Bible Hub lists many different translations on their website - an easy google search


    You will note that the NWT is not included in this lengthy list of bible translations/versions

    Either interpretation of the verse can be found depending upon which bible you chose to read

  • myelaine
    dear TheWonderofYou...

    if you remember, in the OT there were people of "the nations" who attached themselves to the house of israel and began to worship the God of israel in the perscribed manner, they didn't become ethnic hebrews, they became israelites.

    Spiritual israel is a nation made up of ALL redeemed people who are bought by the blood of Jesus and who have the Spirit in them...THAT NONE MAY BOAST. The exact same criteria is met in those called, the body of Christ etc.

    In Hebrews 8:8-13 it says that the new covenant is with (12 tribes) the house of israel and the house of judah (not "gentiles") it goes on to talk about the old covenant sanctuary and the old covenant sacrifices (which were, in fact, destroyed in 70 AD) in 9:1-10. Verse 11 tells us Who the mediator of the new covenant is and about His new and perfect tabernacle. There are only 2 options here...either the new covenant doesn't include non-israelites OR the grafting in that is spoken of elsewhere means that individual believers from "the nations" are grafted in to become israelites just like the old days.

    I'm sending you a link in a private message too :)

    love michelle
  • leaving_quietly

    What, exactly, does it mean to "observe the Sabbath"? I have a post on another forum with essentially this same question.

    I get that the Sabbath means no work. Great. A mandatory day of rest. Okay, then, what does it mean to "rest"?

    Isa 58:13 says you can't pursue your own interests on the Sabbath (which, BTW, was the first mention of that rule in the Bible.)

    So, if you can't work and you can't pursue your own interests (which I would equate to doing stuff like reading, hiking, learning a musical instrument, playing video games, watching a movie, even studying the Bible to enrich your understanding) then exactly what is one supposed to do on the Sabbath? This is what I don't get.

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