Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video

by turtleturtle 146 Replies latest jw friends

  • cofty
    Jesus was silent about homosexuality. Isn't he is the one to closely follow and not Paul (was was the one who condemned men being together in his letters)? - LRG

    So do you really think they could throw all of Paul's writings in the bin and still expect not to go out of business in a heartbeat?

    Say the Old Testament is out of date. - SBF

    You have lost the plot. They are an OT religion!

    So all they have to do is tear all of the OT and all of Paul's letters out the bible and sanction gay weddings.


  • slimboyfat

    They routinely call the Old Testament out of date over things like the sabbath. You were a JW weren't you?

    Plus they readily ignore a great many texts in the New Testament. There are a dozen or more New Testament texts that talk about hell fire, torment, forever and ever and so on. They explain away every single one.

    Of course they can reinterpret the text to suit themselves. They are masters at it. The question is not can it be done. It can be done. The question is when the pressure for them to change will become sufficient for them to do it.

  • cofty
    They routinely call the Old Testament out of date over things like the sabbath.

    No they don't. They use NT texts to explain why keeping the Law is not binding on christians. The NT specifically says not to worry about keeping the sabbath. "You were a JW weren't you?"

    Problem is the NT is just as unambiguously opposed to gay relationships as the OT.

    Opposition to gay marriage is so deeply ingrained in JWs it will never happen.

    I don't understand this unrealistic fantasy about a new friendlier JW organisation. It is beyond redemption.

  • slimboyfat

    Of course that is the point. They say the OT doesn't apply because it's been replaced.

    The NT teaches hell fire. It doesn't stop JWs claiming the opposite. And texts on homosexuality have arguably more wriggle room than hell fire texts. They only refer to certain kinds of relationships which aguably don't apply if gay people get married.

    Personally I never thought gay marriage would happen at all ten years ago. It seemed like a contradiction in terms to my brain then. I've seen veteran gay activists interviewed say even they never dreamed it would happen. Funny how things change!

    JWs can change too. In fact the Pew suvey suggests they are already changing because 50% more JWs accepted gay people in 2014 than 7 years earlier. At that rate it won't take long!

  • krejames

    To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality in particular a loving romantic relationship between two people of the same sex (unless you include Jonathan and David). it only goes so far as to condemn intercourse between two men*.

    Like I said in another thread on this subject- those two mommies might well have had a celibate relationship. It's no one's place to make judgements about what may or may not go on behind closed doors. The witnesses consistently go beyond what the bible actually says. The message of this video is that the family unit would need to break up if they want to enter paradise. And that anyone who is homosexual can change their orientation.

    The comparison with racism is right. Because the witnesses did used to teach a racist message which they used the bible to justify. Only time has changed that. The bible is still the same. No one would now argue that the witnesses message of 70 years ago or so wasn't racist. I think it will be the same with their message about homosexuality. Indeed it is already.

    *edit - and even then it's only mentioned in the context of orgies or illicit or pagan practices.

  • cofty
    It's no one's place to make judgements about what may or may not go on behind closed doors.

    You and I know that.

    They will DF a hetrosexual couple for spending a night together in the same house unchaperoned.

  • slimboyfat

    Russell suggested that black people would turn white in the new system.

    This video says gay people can change if they want to get to paradise.

    One day (already here for many) we'll view those two statements as equally offensive and (perhaps crucially) equally bizarre.

  • just fine
    just fine

    I think the video is ridiculous and hope they get a lot of bad publicity out of it.

    But I think I see what some are trying to say. When a baker doesn't make a cake for a gay couple it is discriminatory. The cake is tangible and has been made for many straight couples. Therefore it should be available to anyone who wants a cake.

    Paradise is a made up place, that you get to with (ever changing) made up rules. And no one can ever prove that a straight person made it to paradise and a gay person did not.

    So it's not okay to discriminate in real world situations, but we can all have whatever made up rules, affecting made up places we want.

    Do I have the argument right? Just trying to understand,not trying to start a shit-storm.

  • cofty

    Strawman once again SBF.

    Nobody is defending the video as being objectively right. I realise you must get a buzz of righteous indignation by pretending you are arguing with a watchtower apologist. You are not.

    Why is anybody the least bit surprised and feigning outrage when a bunch of biblical literalists take a position on a biblical prohibition?

  • Simon
    So condemning a biracial couple and a same sex couple are tantamount or not? What's the difference? Whether is bible or harry potter.

    There is a difference (to them) as someone can abstain from sex, you can't abstain from your race.

    Simon you just said that the video isn't awful. Surely you're just referring to the quality of the animation. Because the message that "God doesn't let gays into paradise," although in line with what the bible says, is an awful awful message.

    No, it's not the awful video of homophobia peaching hate and discrimination that some have claimed and certainly been unable to demonstrate in any cohesive way.

    That is not the same thing as praising it as some black/white thinkers will no doubt interpret it.

    I think most of the bible is crap, but it is what it is and the video is a very mild interpretation of it.

    Imagine the video said ...

    Except it doesn't, so why bother?

    Imagine it said "SBF is a genius" ... then would you praise it? These "what if it said this" games are ludicrous and pointless. Let's all pretend it says to sacrifice babies in a furnace. There ya' go - tell the newspapers. I mean, if we're not going to base it on facts then we may as well make up whatever we want to make our case, eh? Is that how it works?

    Like it or not, the next generation of young people think bigotry based on sexuality is just as unacceptable as racism.

    Neither are "won" battles.

    It is hate speech. End of story.

    Except it isn't. I think your argument ended though.

    But I would have had a discrimination mentality no matter how soft I tried yo make it and I would be passing it along to my daughter. If there was a scale for discrimination this might not be between 5-10 but it would be on the scale.

    Wow, so far in and still you are clueless as to what discrimination is.

    To everyone saying that the bible backs up the message in the video, I respectfully disagree. The bible says nothing about homosexuality

    That's simply not true. It says plenty and in pretty direct terms:


    At the end of the day, and what I think many people don't "get", is that they have their religious belief based on the bible interpretation, that marriage is strictly between man and woman and you don't have to like it but you have to respect it. They are entitled to hold that belief, they are allowed to teach it to their kids, they are allowed to preach that belief to others and while they don't (as other groups do), they would be entitled to campaign politically to promote that belief to be law.

    Personally, I disagree with most bible based beliefs because I think it's a book of crap. But I can recognize that their belief is at least consistent with the bible and is defensible from that position.

    Just as someone else being gay or not shouldn't matter to us, so someone else being religious and believing what they want about who they want shouldn't matter to us either. Freedom isn't just allowing the things you like and banning everything you don't.

    What is of consequence is whether people a) use hate speech and b) promote and practice discrimination (actual discrimination, not whatever freemindfade thinks it is). At that point they trespass into an area where the law can step in and hold them accountable for violating other people's rights.

    But they haven't, not with this video.

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