Maybe I'm Just Ignorant About the New "Anti-Gay" Video

by turtleturtle 146 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  cofty

  does the source/origin somehow absolve it?

  No but it explains it.

  Many faith groups are softening their stance on gay marriage. The child comes home saying that her teacher said gay marriage is ok and that the only thing that matters is that people love one another - well said teacher.

  The problem is the bible unequivocally condemns gay relationships.

  Mother tells child that Jehovah has rules about getting into paradise and gay relationships are not allowed.

  Mother tells child to tell her school friend about pandas.

  Serious question - What would you have them do or say? Do you think it is possible for them to change their rules and allow gay weddings at Kingdom Halls? What would the consequences be on the R&F?
• 

  steve2

  Again, I am with Cofty and Simon on this. Of course there are "levels" of communication that can be deduced from the video - but adhering to what is actually stated in the video, you'd be hard pressed to specify "discrimination".

  To repeat from at least three earlier threads on this exhaustively discussed video: When Sophie asks, What should she say to her school friend, her JW mother says talk about Paradise and playing with the animals.

  Yet, time and time and time again, posters claim Sophie will now go back to her school friend and criticise the friend's two mothers. I guess she could - but that is not what the video even hints she should say.

  Does Sophie's JW mother tell her to avoid the company of her school friend? No. But I guess a JW parent could direct their child to do so. But that is not even what the video even hints at.

  And we already know that JWs in actuality choose to distance themselves from all kinds of people - even their own "brothers and sisters" if they do not measure up. It may seem like cold comfort I know, but JWs atrocious views on others extend way beyond sexuality.  They have raised discrimination to a religious art form in which sexuality is but one of innumerable "Must to Avoid" categories.

  This is an unfortunate example of people allowing their understandable sensitivity to get in the way of what the video actually states.

  Do I think the video is homophobic. There's a cautious "Yes" from me but certainly not a strong sense that it is neither blatant nor excessive from a religious group known for its adherence to Biblical views on sexual relationships (and that is not an endorsement from me by the way).
• 

  sparrowdown

  Yeah, I see the connection a child's drawing of her two mothers which Sophia spies out, pulls it down off the blackboard, and pulls an icky face. Sophia then goes home tells Mom about the two mommies drawing which prompts a bizarre illustration about planes and luggage with the conclusion being "tell so-and-so about the paradise." Yeah makes soo much sense.
• 

  krejames

  I genuinely can't make my mind up on this. My boyfriend had seen the video on Pinknews and told me he thought it was ridiculous how the ex-JWs were portraying it as homophobic etc. It's just doing what religions do best...

  I kind of agree. BUT at the end of the day, "homophobic" is just a technicality. Who cares? There is no doubt in my mind this is a very dangerous video purely because of the unhealthy effect if will have on gay JW children. I remember all too well what that was like and at one point being on the brink of suicide.

  Replace "two mommies" with any two ethnic minorities and I don't think we would be having a debate about whether the video were discriminatory or racist. Or that JWs are entitled to believe what they like as long as they were not actually promoting discriminatory behaviour like refusing to serve ethnic minorities in a shop. It's subtle. Cleverly subtle. But maybe my boyfriend is right, arguing as to whether it is homophobic is ridiculous and just makes us gay xjws look bad.

  But that wouldnt stop me expressing my disgust to a JW about this dangerous video if the chance came up to do so.
• 

  Simon

  Maybe cofty and simon can clearly tell me what the video promotes. Because clearly me and a lot of other don't understand it the way they do.

  Well I think it's pretty obvious what the video promotes. It's the idea that the bible is the word of god, and god (via the bible) condemns homosexuality and says not to practice it. There is no message of hate or any hint of a suggestion that people be discriminated against however. Just as with anyone who won't get into paradise for whatever reason, they believe that is all up to god to handle (they are a hands-off religion).

  Cofty and SImon i feel like you are playing along with the witness ignorance of the awful things they promote.

  Far from it, I'm just not joining in calling something awful when it really isn't. Of all the bible beliefs and religious attitudes towards homosexuals, the WTS must rank along some of the very mildest. I think most of the comments about this video are based on what people would like for it to have contained to justify the inappropriate outrage when the reality is, it isn't as they portray it. I doubt many have even watched it.

  For some, even that is clearly too much and the place to battle. Personally, I think it simply makes people look petty and foolish and too much outrage over too little tends to piss away goodwill that people have for any 'cause and the ones doing it look increasingly like whiners who just want to find fault in anything and everything.

  can you imagine a witness saying "we don't shun people, we just don't let them on the plane, they have to leave the airport" whelp guess they don't practice barbaric shunning because they said it like that. lol come on now

  If they said that then it would be right to challenge them on it and call it out. That is your problem - all the way through you add "IF" and insert your own convenient example of what would be hypocritical and / or discriminatory. But none of that means that they say the things you claim in the video.

  So final chance - do you want to admit that they are not actually teaching discrimination in it?

  Discrimination is a very real and insidious thing and I'd rather not see a real issue which is a real problem for people conflated with some imaginary "oh no, my feelings were hurt" first-world pretend problem.

  If someone walks into a shop wearing a hijab and the owner refuses to serve them because of it, are they being discriminated against? It depends - if they have a sign saying no helmets, hoodies etc... then no. If they just don't like muslims then yes. No one should ever be told that they can't get what the next person in line is going to buy simply because they are gay, black, short, fat or anything else (except maybe a United supporter).

  At some point things move beyond inconveniences of buying cakes and such and into the realm of impacting people's lives (issuing marriage licenses, not giving people jobs) and real life and death issues (can an EMS responder refuse to treat a gay man?).

  Yes, REAL issues. Not "someone else is teaching their kid that their pretend god isn't going to invite me to their make -believe world".
• 

  Simon

  The implication and point of the video accomplishes what it is suppose to. Discrimination.

  Still, you haven't said what discrimination it accomplishes. Do you even know what discrimination is? I gave some examples to make things clearer.

  Replace "two mommies" with any two ethnic minorities and I don't think we would be having a debate about whether the video were discriminatory or racist.

  The bible is the issue for things like that. You can't replace it with black people or anything else not quotable because then it's clearly invented and they don't have the fallback of "it says so in the bible" (because the bible does say those things). I think that is what some people are missing when they try to compare it to interracial marriage etc.

  There is still the difference between opinions and beliefs and discrimination. Discrimination is a real manifestation of the belief, the belief in itself is not discrimination unless it's applied. Someone can have racist opinions for instance, but not be guilty of contravening someone's civil rights but if they do the latter, they likely have racist opinions.

  Or that JWs are entitled to believe what they like as long as they were not actually promoting discriminatory behaviour like refusing to serve ethnic minorities in a shop. It's subtle. Cleverly subtle.

  I agree. They know where the line is and they are much cleverer than, well, many of us it seems so stay well away from it. There are lots of things they could have said that would still have fallen under the banner of "the bible tells us so" but they didn't. The message was pretty mild, especially for a conservative christian religious group. I can understand why some see more into it than it actually contains. Being objective, especially when something is emotive and may have had such an impact on people's personal lives, is very difficult. That's why it's important to have some rational voices play devils advocate and question if things are really as some are claiming them to be.
• 

  freemindfade

  Steve2 cofty and Simon. With a simple yes or no answer if this video with the exact same message and presentation dealt with biracial couples instead of homosexual would it be considered discrimination? Yes or no? If everything you are pontificating on is true you should be able to just say no. Go ahead.
• 

  Simon

  With a simple yes or no answer if this video with the exact same message and presentation dealt with biracial couples instead of homosexual would it be considered discrimination? Yes or no?

  No. But then you don't seem to have a clue what discrimination actually *is* which is a significant part of the issue.

  Most people would consider it racist because it wouldn't 'benefit' from the cover that the bible provides for other outdated views.

  Let me ask you a question: if I tell my child that you lack the magical power to get into Hogwarts, have you been discriminated against?
• 

  cofty

  if this video ... dealt with biracial couples

  It doesn't.

  There are plenty things to condemn the cult for without inventing hypothetical crimes.
• 

  freemindfade

  So condemning a biracial couple and a same sex couple are tantamount or not? What's the difference? Whether is bible or harry potter..