When You See a JW Do You Get Flustered?

by minimus 104 Replies latest jw friends

  • Tom Harley
    Tom Harley

    Many remarks are here and hopefully no one expects me to answer them all, for each has ten followups and I would never be able to leave, which perhaps is the point. One must pick and choose.

    Several have raised the ARC hearings. In general, we got pasted a bit because we were not seen to help enough in the world's fight to handle its pedophilia problem. Apostates try to reframe this to suggest there would be no pedophilia problem without Jehovah's Witnesses. It doesn't fly, though, I admit it can be spun to cause us embarrassment.

    The only reason there ever were records that everyone now wants is that Witnesses were proactive when few others were. They kept track so that a pedophile could not slip out of one congregation and enter another, and thereby endanger children there. This was not attempted at many other churches. In fact, it was not possible at some - many churches are completely autonomous in governance and keep no central records. A pervert slips out of one and easily slides right into another.

    The pedophile problem is absolutely out of control and authorities are beside themselves trying to reign it in. Everyone knows this. Turn on the TV. Throw a stone in any direction and you will hit ten pedophiles. People that must track internet child porn as part of their jobs liken it to Medusa; one look and you turn to stone.

    This will not be easy to stem. It increases with time as internet porn whips up an appetite, but it has long been a staple of human existence. The Greeks, foundation of Western society, built their civilization around molestation of children; it was an accepted, even enshrined part of daily life.

    The Witness policy is that when required by law, any instance of child abuse is reported to police, and any member is always free to report such an instance, required or not. Child advocates go apoplectic at this - why does not go beyond the law? One reason you do not go beyond the law is that in a clergy-penitent relationship, same as doctor-patient, or lawyer-client relationship, you get into serious trouble for breaking confidentiality. Instead, if going beyond the law is the gold standard, why doesn't that become the law? It is not as though governments do not know how to pass laws. In fact, our guy pleaded with the commission to make laws uniform across the board, instead of the patchwork that it is, for it would make our job ever so much easier. But the disunited world cannot even do that. When all was said and done, it was clear that our people wanted to cooperate and there will no doubt be policies to address their concerns, though the world's track record on controlling pedophilia is dismal.

    Certainly errors on our part have been made and it is exacerbated by the reluctance of some old-timer rank and file members to 'air dirty underwear.' They must come to realize that we now live in a world in which people routinely stroll around in dirty underwear and have little comprehension or sympathy for a reluctance to share. The situation will continue to adjust.

    To return to the thread's topic, many have stated Witnesses have no interest in staying at the door and get away quickly. Surely this is an example of how the one who measures can skew what is measured. Are those on this thread the typical audience JWs will encounter? Does anyone think that I stand there and patiently reason with Outlaw when he answers the door? I dive through the open window of my car. If it is a fight I am looking for, I can pick one with my spouse and never leave home. Witnesses find many a hearing ear, but none are on this forum.

    Someone else is not unduly put out by ISIS running over strollers in trucks. It is just one of those things. Why, there were bad people in the past, too. Where is this promised presence of his? Why all things are continuing exactly as from creation's beginning. He has fallen into the atheist camp, for atheists reason this way. He likely blasts at members from this same thread on other forums populated by ones who have fallen into the old-time-religion camp.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Apostates try to reframe this to suggest there would be no pedophilia problem without Jehovah's Witnesses......Tom Harley

    No..

    There would be no WBT$/JW Pedophile Problems, without WBT$/JW Pedophiles..

    Obviously, you`re good the WBT$ Protection, of WBT$/JW Pedophiles..

    .....

    In the Real World..
    People who protect WBT$/JW Pedophiles, are no better than WBT$/JW Pedophiles..

    That would be you..

  • alcyone
    alcyone

    Apostates try to reframe this to suggest there would be no pedophilia problem without Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I would say you try to reframe what "apostates" suggest. Classic strawman. What is criticized is not the fact there are paedophiles in the org, but the way the organization handled these cases - two witnesses rule, shunning of victims if they leave the org, not reporting it to the police, ...

  • TD
    TD

    Ich bin enttäuscht aber nicht überrascht....

    The question still stands though. Did Jehovah allow the ingathering of the "great multitude" to begin too soon? What exactly has changed since JW leaders and policy makers were confident enough to make statements like the one below?:

    “Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves….God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.”

  • Tom Harley
    Tom Harley

    Don’t you love Jeremiah, whose book has come up in the current JW regimen of Bible reading? He wimped out when first commissioned as a prophet. He was just a boy, he said. But he manned up when God assured him he would be with him.

    He wasn’t like Moses who carried on and on and on until finally God said: “Oh, for crying out loud! Here, take Aaron along with you! You just stand there and look pretty, and he will do the heavy lifting. I would put him in charge, except I have seen some calf blueprints in his bookbag and that worries me."

    Jeremiah blasts away at the rebellious people for chapter after chapter, fearlessly. Chapter 20 gives the first hint that he is human. ‘I’ve had it!’ he says, ‘Who needs this? All they do is come after me!’ But Jehovah is with him and gives him a second wind.

    People back then did not benefit in the slightest from his words, nor do people today. Making fun of him and his role, there is even the expression ‘jeremiads,’ which essentially means ‘endless bitching.’ One wonders what God will eventually do about it.

    Sometimes I like to point to Acts 28: 21-22, where all of Christianity is called a sect that is ‘everywhere spoken against.’ I wonder what the modern-day counterpart of it is. If a faith is respected or even accepted in the world today, that, in itself, rules it out as the successor of Acts 28. Look for the faith where members are individually praised but collectively maligned.

  • blondie
    blondie

    TD

    What exactly has changed since JW leaders and policy makers were confident enough to make statements like the one below?:

    “Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves….God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.”

    ----------In 1970 in the study WT, the WTS announced that they no longer believed that the GT had started in 1914 to be TEMPORARILY interrupted in 1918 to begin at a future time to culminate in Armageddon.

    Quote

    *** w58 11/15 pp. 691-692 par. 22 Signs and Wonders in the Time of the End ***
    Jehovah God did so. In 1918 he stopped the great tribulation that had begun upon the enemy organization of Satan the Devil. Along with it World War I ended on November 11 of that year. His time for Armageddon, “the war of the great day of God the Almighty,” was still future. In this way he cut short the days of that tribulation upon Satan’s organization invisible and visible.

    Quote

    *** w61 11/1 p. 671 Questions From Readers ***
    The fulfillment of divine prophecy indicates that the last way is the one by which the “great tribulation” is cut short. According to the Bible, A.D. 1914 is a fixed date. It was fixed for the ending of the “appointed times of the nations” and for the birth of God’s Messianic kingdom in the heavens. (Luke 21:24; Rev. 12:1-5) The birth of the Kingdom in the heavens meant the start of the war in heaven against the Devil and his unholy angels up there. By this war in heaven against the Devil’s invisible organization the “great tribulation” began. Of course, it had its effects upon the visible part of Satan’s organization here on earth. The war resulted in ousting the Devil and his demons from heaven and confining their area of activity to this earth. Their keeping active about the earth was not prevented, for the Devil and his demons were not abyssed on being confined to this earth. (Rev. 12:6-17) Thus for the time being the great tribulation upon Satan’s organization was interrupted or discontinued. Evidently that occurred by A.D. 1918.

    *** w65 12/15 p. 754 par. 31 “We Should Not Neglect the House of Our God” ***Do you, our reader, see yourself in that “great crowd”? If so, then you know that the “great tribulation” mentioned above began with the “beginning of pangs of distress” during the years 1914-1918, as foretold by Jesus Christ, the “Lamb” who shed his blood in sacrifice to God for cleansing away the “sin of the world.” (Matt. 24:8; John 1:29)

    Quote

    *** w70 1/15 p. 52 par. 9 Peace with God amid the “Great Tribulation” ***On account of his “chosen ones” he cuts short the days. How? Back in the year 1925 the suggestion was set out in the leading article of the Watch Tower issue of May 1, entitled “For the Elect’s Sake,” that “those days” of the “great tribulation” were cut short in the middle. The explanation was given that the “great tribulation” had begun in 1914 C.E. and that it was not allowed to run its full course then but God stopped World War I in November of 1918. From then on God was allowing an interval for the activity of his anointed remnant of elect Christians before he let the final part of the “great tribulation” resume at the battle of Armageddon and come to its termination. This would allow for sheeplike persons to be saved.—Matt. 25:31-46.
  • StephaneLaliberte
    StephaneLaliberte

    Tom, honestly, you're a waist of time. So far, you've been dancing around the issues presented to you without asking questions that truly matters.

    Why are people here? What made them leave the organization? How did the organization influence their lives? What kind of life do they have now?

    Any conversation should be beneficial for both parties involved. However, so far, you sound like you're writing just to read and re-read your own comments in order to increase your sentiment of spiritual superiority. Superiority over us, over the worldlies and even over your felow JWs who would not agree with you being here. No, you sir, are the most spiritually enlightened individual on the surface of the earth.

    Well, enjoy living in your bubble.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    But he manned up....Tom Harley

    You could man up Tom..

    1)..You could start your own thread instead of hijacking this one..

    2)..You could respond to what people have actually posted..

    ......

    Instead Of Posting Your Next WBT$..

    Image result for Brain Fart

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    I wouldn't say I would ever 'dread a Witness coming toward me' I haven't been disfellowshipped and I hadn't done anything to feel ashamed of.

    I felt comfortable talking to witnesses, even the elders who came to my door however it would change when they brought up the subject of the 'truth' and I had to defend my position. There were some subjects they found were a sore spot, unfortunately. Some teachings have affected my life detrimentally I believe. 1975, the generation teaching. This has also affected the next generation in my family. I feel the need to explain why they were so bad and how they have made my/our lives more difficult by listening and having faith, demonstrated by how we adapted our lives to what we believed were things coming from Jehovah.




  • TD
    TD

    Hi Blondie,

    As you point out above, the "great tribulation" was relocated to some indeterminate point in the future in the year 1970.

    The quote I gave is from the publication Survival Into a New Earth, which was published about 14 years after that adjustment.

    As you can see, the "great crowd" doctrine had at that point been salvaged via the notion that the "great tribulation" would still occur in the lifetimes of those in attendance at the 1935 convention.

    In other words, although those people were not members of the "great crowd" in the technical sense of having actually survived that event, they were still "prospective" members of the "great crowd" in the sense that survival was a real and distinct possibility.

    However as I've pointed out to Tom, it's painfully obvious at this point that those people were not even "prospective" members of the "great crowd."

    If I remember correctly, you and I may have disagreed somewhat over whether "other sheep" may legitimately exist as a separate and distinct group apart from the "great crowd" during the Christian era. (Within the framework of JW theology, of course.)

    I think that would be a fun "patio discussion," especially with a mind as lively as yours, but my point to Tom was only that he can't glibly shrug his shoulders and say, "We've changed that."