Polytheism - Jehovah has same status as other gods

by Sirona 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sirona

    Hi JR

    God is not Fasioned after the imaginations of man nor by his hands. God is TRANSENDENT!

    Your god is some sort of cut and paste project out of the immaganations of your heart.

    (sigh) JR I wish you'd actually read what I typed.

    God is God and I agree that God is not "fashioned" by humans. What I'm saying is that experience of the divine can take on many faces, depending upon who is looking. That is not "fashioning" God, that is being able to experience or understand God from our human perspective.

    Then you quote Paul:

    24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

    I agree that God does not live in temples built by hands. That is why I worship anywhere (within reason)- outdoors, indoors, wherever.

    About giving proof by raising from the dead, there are many stories of gods incarnate who are killed and then raised from the dead. Why should I think yours is any different?

    By the way, JR, your argument would be a lot more convincing if you were better at spelling. Honestly I'm not trying to be offensive but if you use long(ish) words you should at least know how to spell them. (Clouds, not Clowds, Accepted, not eccepted....etc.)


  • Mecurious?

    Clash_city_rockers, that was really off the wall, I enjoyed your post, and laughed about 4 minutes on the luke sky walker thing.


  • seedy3


    Did you forget to take your meds today??


    Panthiest do not have a set of rules like many religons, but their are general beleifs that describe a panthiest and one of them is not accepting things such as witchcraft and shamanism which I do accept. Now on that note Panthiest are also part of those beliefs, but not the mainstay of them. Panthiests are generally on the verge of Athiestic, but not quite. Panthiesm often includes in a broad sence all nature religons like wicca, shamanism, native american and austrailian, taoists, true shintos, buddist and so forth. even Hindus have a panthiestic view of religon and nature. They have no "Doctrine" as the jeudeo/christian/islamic religons do, however there are certain beliefs. the one common to all, is nature and the belief in everything is of this energy and we are this energy. The Hindus call it Brahman, the native american (Lakotas) call it wakentanka.

  • clash_city_rockers

    Funky writes:

    it's hard to see how you could call someone reasonable or intelligent if they based their beliefs on anything other than the available evidence.

    The Gosple accounts provide plenty of evidence, the problem is that you already before looking at the account have rejected them. For you the problem is deeper than the intellect which for the most part your a pretty sharp guy the problem with you is in the heart. Your not nutral you have presuppositions that are due to a sinfull heart. I'm just here to undermind your presuposition and point out that they are unintellegable in regaurds to Christ and his gosple.

    Funky asks a good question:

    But what's the difference between presupposing the existence of Jesus (and all that goes with it) and presupposing the existence of Allah, or Luke Skywalker, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

    Jesus has manifested himself through out human history through his covenant people From Adam to Noah, to Abraham and his desendence. This is demonstraded through out the acount of redemptive history. Islam as you inquire was a 7th centery psudeo christian herecy that came from the Arabian penincula. The Islamic concept of Allah does not exest because Allah is a fabracated god made up by evil sinfull hearts. The Koran is a fake made up book just like the book of Mormon it has NO redemtion or even a made up story of redemtion.

    Sirona on her take on Acts writes:

    I agree that God does not live in temples built by hands.

    This also incudes our imaganations of what god is like. Man can only know God through His revelation and not in thier inward imaganed formulation.

    The knowlage of God comes from God and not from man. God is transendent.

    Sirona posts:

    About giving proof by raising from the dead, there are many stories of gods incarnate who are killed and then raised from the dead. Why should I think yours is any different?

    1 Kings 18:20-35 Demonstrates that all false gods are absolutly nothing and non-exsistant and the true Jehovah God is absolutly the one true and ONLY living God.

    God or Baal on Mount Carmel 20 So Ahab sent a message among all the sons of Israel and brought the prophets together at Mount Carmel.
    21 Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." But the people did not answer him a word.
    22 Then Elijah said to the people, "I alone am left a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men.
    23 "Now let them give us two oxen; and let them choose one ox for themselves and cut it up, and place it on the wood, but put no fire under it; and I will prepare the other ox and lay it on the wood, and I will not put a fire under it.
    24 "Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD, and the God who answers by fire, He is God." And all the people said, "That is a good idea."
    25 So Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one ox for yourselves and prepare it first for you are many, and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it."
    26 Then they took the ox which was given them and they prepared it and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon saying, "O Baal, answer us." But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they made.
    27 It came about at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened."
    28 So they cried with a loud voice and cut themselves according to their custom with swords and lances until the blood gushed out on them.
    29 When midday was past, they raved until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice; but there was no voice, no one answered, and no one paid attention.
    30 Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come near to me." So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD which had been torn down.
    31 Elijah took twelve stones according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Israel shall be your name."
    32 So with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he made a trench around the altar, large enough to hold two measures of seed.
    33 Then he arranged the wood and cut the ox in pieces and laid it on the wood.
    34 And he said, "Fill four pitchers with water and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood." And he said, "Do it a second time," and they did it a second time. And he said, "Do it a third time," and they did it a third time.
    35 The water flowed around the altar and he also filled the trench with water.

    BTW: my spelling does suck, sorry

    OMT: Panthiesm is a works salvation pathiesm has no consept of Grace. You guys are legalists and moralists just like the WT



  • clash_city_rockers

    Funky one more thing.

    By your standard of skeptism about the Christian God you would by that reasonable standard of consistancy would have to reject any god Sirona puts forth (Reductio )

    So why the absurd irrational inconsistancey when you run at her defence of some jack in the box whimsical god? Where is your super human intellegence in that?


  • free will
    free will

    i guess we would have to presuppose that the bible is the word of god. if we do, then we would believe in jesus, jehovah (nwt version) and the other gods. (most other versions). - i need to learn the original languages of the bible to come to a better understanding of the translations.- all gods being a spirit form. if you don't believe the bible is god's word - then we are creationists or evolutionists. if we are creationists then there is a god, but is his word the bible? if we are evolutionists then we don't necessarily believe in god. i don't know what i am but i'm leaning toward believing there are multiple gods and yahweh is the god written about in the holy scriptures.

    another thread listed on this forum about 'the other people', demonstrated the possibility of other gods. if that is true (and it sounds plausible to me) then do we necessarily benefit from jesus sacrifice? or do we need to find out what the other gods require?

    too many gods, so little time.

  • clash_city_rockers


    The explanation of the true God found in the bible is not dependent on our human experience to explain HIM.

  • clash_city_rockers

    freewill some what confuesed posts:

    i'm leaning toward believing there are multiple gods and yahweh is the god written about in the holy scriptures.

    In leaning towards the belief in mutable gods which Yahweh of the bible is just one of. When Yahweh alone claims that he is the only true God and there are now others

    Song of Moses found in Ex 15:11

    " (23) Who is like You among the gods, O LORD?
    Who is like You, (24) majestic in holiness,
    (25) Awesome in praises, (26) working wonders?

    1. Ex 8:10; 9:14; Deut 3:24; 2 Sam 7:22; 1 Kin 8:23; Ps 71:19; 86:8; Mic 7:18
    2. Is 6:3; Rev 4:8
    3. Ps 22:23
    4. Ps 72:18; 136:4

    And in the 1st commandment

    Ex: 20:1-3

    1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
    2 " (1) I am the LORD your God, (2) who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
    3 " (3) You shall have no other (4) gods [1] before Me.

    1. Or besides Me
    2. Lev 26:1; Deut 5:6; Ps 81:10
    3. Ex 13:3; 15:13, 16; Deut 7:8
    4. Deut 6:14; 2 Kin 17:35; Jer 25:6; 35:15
    5. Ex 15:11; 20:23

    freewill, by reason and logical consistancy you can not have it boath ways. You either have a multitude of man gods which in reality are none. this means the God of the bible can not be named amoung them. Or you can throw those fake multible gods in the trash and go with the one true only God of the bible Yahweh.

    At this point you might say gee God is narrow minded and egotistical, I like the plurality of man made gods they let me do what ever I like.

    My point is that you cant have both. The God of the bible is seperate.



  • seedy3
    OMT: Panthiesm is a works salvation pathiesm has no consept of Grace. You guys are legalists and moralists just like the WT

    Panthiesm does not have a concept of "salvation" or "grace" Panthiesm is a respect and beleif in the energy of nature, not in any particular god of "salvation", however they do often use symbols to represent the nature of things, but these things and people are not gods, they are more revered as great people or the great things in nature that the symbols represent. The misconception that christians have that, as an example, Buddah is the Buddist god is just that a misconception. He is mearly the enlightened one, and in most, if not all buddist sects one can attain the level of Buddah, it does not mean you become a "God" it mearly means you have reached enlightenment, full knowlege. Or the eagle feather or claw, in Native american religons, it is not a god and is not worshipped it is used to symbolize that part of nature and the energy that that part of nature has.

    Christains say "You worship the creation not the creator" however I feel much differently, I feel you worship a theory of an invisable entity as a way to explan how things got here. I worship or respect and homage the energy that is us all and that we are all a part of, not a personage that has been passed down and evolved from one god to another through out the history of man.

    As far as your quotes from the bible to prove that Jehovah, or Jesus are the "True" way, and that other gods are weak or are false gods, I am sure if you read some of the old texts from ancient reliefs and scrolls, there are many such stories of gods that did many simular things and were shown to be the most powerful. until another beleif system rolled in and eventually it died out and was replaced with another god or belief system that many time adopted much the same stories to show their god or gods to be the most powerful. Many of these have been adopted into christianity in one form or another, and are now applied to Jehovah (YHWH is now the Canaanite El) and Jesus (Yeshuah is now the Roman Mithras, and Chaldian Mithra or the ayssirain Baccus and so on). Most notably the personage of YHWH is almost idendticle to El, in every shape and form, except El was a mercyful god and YHWH exacts exclusive worship, with the threat of death, something that was not in the Canaanite concept of worship in dealing with El. All of the ones that seem to have come down to Jesus all have a very simular life history as jesus did, they were all considered savours, and many many simularities, including the Euchrist meal with the exact same meanings to the emblems, some had 12 main followers that were to be the leaders in the movement, ect ect, Baccus was also Crucified on a cross just like christendoms Jesus was, Attis on a tree.

    So the use of the bible stories to prove that Jehovah is the one true almighty god is a very weak arguement. I imagine if I took a book about Superman I could prove that he was a real powerful man, by showing the stories of how he lifted up a train and blew entire mountains away with his breath. Each mythology panthieon had it stories and they were taught as true and believed by the people of that day. Oh and if you want to say "yes but those religons have died out and passed away" You are very wrong, Zoroastriaism (the beleif in Ahurah Mazda almighty god and Mithra the son god) is still practised in the middle east and India.

    If you really look deep deep into most of the basic religions today, outside of native beliefs, you will find an ever so faint path back to Hinduism, that has it's roots traced back farther then any other beleif system. Even the story of the Mithical Job, mentioned inthe bible has a strange parallel to a story in the Hindu writings, as well as the stories of their savour and such. make a study of it and see for yourself, you may not change your mind, I don't expect you to, but at least open your mind and understand your religous history, rather then just look to the bible as the only source to spirtual enlightnement.


  • free will
    free will

    clash- please explain gen3:22 "...here the man has become like one of us..."

    or the fact that there were other people outside of the garden of eden. at gen 4:16 and 17. "...cain went away...and took up residence in the land of fugitiveness to the east of eden...cain had intercourse with his wife ..."

    whose people were these in the land east of eden

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