AGuest said:
Peace to you, dear UnDf'd...
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) How do you know that the Scriptures are "NOT untampered with"? (End of Quote)
Well, one reason is because they say that they are... and my Lord issued a judgment against those who did. If they were not, the "scriptures" would not say they were... and if they COULD not be, my Lord would have no reason to issue a warning - Jeremiah 8:8; Revelation 22:18, 19
I definitely agree that people can pervert the Scriptures, just look at the Watchtower's "Bible".
However, I am 100% sure that God has preserved an accurate [perhaps not 100% untampered with] Translation, and from my research, I believe that the King James Version and the English Majority Text Version are probably the most accurate Translations when compared to the ancient Manuscripts, and when compared with the writings of the early 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Century Christians.
Do you know why I am 100% sure that an accurate Translation has been preserved? Because Jesus promised that He would preserve the Old Testament and the New Testament, even if Heaven and Earth pass away:
Matthew 5:18: For assuredly I say to you, until Heaven and Earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle shall by no means pass away from the Law until all things are fulfilled.
Matthew 24:35: Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but My Words shall by no means pass away.
Jesus even said that every single letter of the Old Testament would be preserved.
The Catholic Bibles are some of the most corrupted and perverted ones, along with the New World Translation, when compared with the ancient Manuscripts.
AGuest said:
The second... and to me, the foremost... reason, is what my Lord himself has told me: "Everything I tell you is written; however, not everything that is written is what I will tell you." Now, I COULD just rely on what is written, that the "false stylus" of the "secretaries" has worked "in sheer falsehood." In truth, that would suffice. But there is something even better: I can EXERCISE faith in... and LISTEN... to the voice of my Lord as he has spoken it to me. Tell me, which ARE we to do?
Christians should pray to God that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes so that they can see the Truth of the Scriptures.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Do you have the original Greek or Hebrew manuscripts? (End of Quote)
I am SO glad you asked that question! No, I do not... but PRAISE JAH... there is One who does have access to them... to ALL things... should he need such access... for even if they were burned or buried, nothing is hidden from HIM. But... since HE is the Truth... and the things written in the scriptures and other writings are about HIM... I think it prudent to go... with HIM. Don't you?
Yes, everyone should pray to and talk to Christ. The problem is, if a spirit or if a voice, or even if a spirit tells me that he is Jesus, and if he tells me something that completely contradicts the Bible, which should I believe? I am going to go with Galatians 1:8.
Think about this little example:
I could call President Bush "Jesus Christ" and I could worship him and put all my faith and trust and hope in him, but does that mean I am saved? Will I receive eternal life? Did President Bush die for me?
I could call Michael the Archangel "Jesus Christ" and I could worship him and put all my faith and trust and hope in him, but does that mean I am saved? Will I receive eternal life? Did Michael die for me?
I could call Satan "Jesus Christ" and I could worship him and put all my faith and trust and hope in him, but does that mean I am saved? Will I receive eternal life? Did Satan die for me?
I could call an un-named created angel "Jesus Christ" and I could worship him and put all my faith and trust and hope in him, but does that mean I am saved? Will I receive eternal life? Did this created angel die for me?
I could call Santa Claus "Jesus Christ" and I could worship him and put all my faith and trust and hope in him, but does that mean I am saved? Will I receive eternal life? Did Santa Claus die for me?
That is why it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to make sure you are believing in the REAL JESUS CHRIST of the Bible!
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped): Do you read Biblical Greek or Hebrew? (End of Quote)
Now, see, you shouldn't have asked that one, because my answer would have to be... to some degree... yes. As I have been taught it by my Lord. I also have a very close friend who reads both, as well as Latin. But, in TRUTH... my Lord primarily uses Aramaic... a form of Chaldean and Hebrew... but at times, his "tongue" has been quite an ancient form of Hebrew, such as spoken by Abraham, and perhaps even Noah. Moses' "tongue"... was more advanced/modern... and sprinkled with Egyptian dialogue.
Well, that's cool. I must admit that I do not know either ancient Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic. However, I do know certain Greek and Hebrew words from studying Strong's Bible Dictionary and Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I agree that words were added so that English sentences would make sense, but those added words are clearly pointed out in the King James Version in italics. (End of Quote)
Hmmm... I find it... amusing... that my Lord asks that if such "version" was/is so reliable... why have so many found a need to REVISE it and make even more "versions"?
Some new Translations were made simply because the words in the King James Version are Old English from the 1600's, and most people don't understand several of the old words used in the King James Version.
Some new Translations are based on different sets of Manuscripts. Some new Translations were made because more ancient Manuscripts have been discovered.
The following is another reason why I believe SOME new Translations have been made:
IF the King James Version actually contains a very, very accurate and reliable Translation, then wouldn't Satan want people to make "New" Translations to confuse people, and mislead people? Don't get me wrong, not all new Translations are trying to mislead people (although some definitely are).
The Lord saw that it was fine for the King James Version to be used just about exclusively among Non-Catholic Christians for hundreds of years.
I would definitely like to talk more about Bible Translations as soon as I have enough free time.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I also agree that there are a few copyist errors, which most of the modern Translations have corrected. (End of Quote)
Sigh! The modern translations, dear one, including the original King James... are mostly taken from the Greek and then, for some, the Latin translations. With the exception of some of Paul's (?) letters, the majority was written... in Hebrew and Aramaic. Thus, many... no, my Lord says MANY... mistransLITERATIONS occurred... as well as many (no, again he says MANY) intentional changes to support personal beliefs.
Luke wrote:
Luke 1:3: it seemed good also to me, having investigated from the first all things carefully, to write to you in orderly fashion, most excellent Theophilus,
Luke was writing to "most excellent" Theophilus.
Notice the following Verses:
Acts 23:26: Claudius Lysias, to the most excellent governor Felix: Greetings.
Acts 24:3: both in everything and everywhere we accept it, most excellent Felix, with all thanksgiving.
Acts 26:25: But he said, "I am not mad, most excellent Festus, but I boldly declare words of truth and reason.
So, it appears to me that "most excellent" was a title for Roman Governors or other Roman Officials.
Therefore, it seems to me that Luke was writing "The Gospel of Luke" and "Acts" to a Roman Governor or Official, so I don't think he would have written in Hebrew to a Roman Official.
How do you know which Books or Letters were originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic? I don't think there's anyway to know that for sure, unless ancient Manuscripts have been found where the Gospels were written in Hebrew or Aramaic, and somehow proven to have been written before the Greek Text.
AGuest said:
I will share with you a vision my Lord gave me, not so many weeks ago:
I was taken in the spirit to a large room, upstairs. The time seemed about 1st or 2nd century. I personally could not tell which and during those days, calendars were kept differently - being as precise as we are today was not quite in vogue. But for some reason, I "understand" that it was early 2nd century.
Anyway, there was a large table around which sat 12 men: 5 on each long side, one at each end. In the middle of the table were many scrolls. Before each man were some scrolls and some ink and writing instruments (like thin bones or something). In a far corner, sat another man, whose job it was to watch these men, you know, to keep them from falling asleep or going slow, or something. What were the men doing? Copying... the Law, the letters, the gospels, etc. Evidently, there had been one copy, and these men had been hired... by a VERY wealthy man... to make additional copies.
As I watched, I noticed the following:
1. Two of the men had fallen asleep, as had the "overseer" (it was long and tedious work);
2. One man was not a "educated" as he'd presented himself, and so when he saw certain letters that looked similar to others, he almost always chose the wrong one.
3. Three of the men were disgusted: they were not truly "religious", but the job paid well. They thought a lot of what they were writing was mythlogical and so it didn't really matter what they wrote, so long as it did not deviate too much from what the originals they were using said.
4. One man was making more than one copy at a time: he was secretly preparing a copy for himself as these copies were VERY expensive... sold at VERY high prices... and most could not afford one. He certainly couldn't, and so each night when he left, he sneaked out pieces of his copy in his garments.
5. The others were pretty conscientious, and attempted to make copies "just so".
At some point, two other men arrived: it was there job to check the copies for accuracy. However, two men checking the work of 15 men... well, it was too much, so that much of what was copied (over 70%) was either skimmed... or ignored.
Why did my Lord show me this? I asked him: it was so that I would UNDERSTAND how it truly was... from the beginning of the copying. And as time went on, and people began to believe different things, the copying became different: slightly at times, more pronounced at other times. Thus, they cannot be TRUSTED.
Interesting vision.
But one thing is missing. Let me give an illustration:
If someone today, were to make copies of the United States Constitution (it now being about 216 years old), and then they made changes to it, do you think no one would notice?
So, do you think none of the Christians in the early 2nd Century (some of whom learned the Truth from the Apostles, since John did not die until around 100 A.D.), being only about 70-100 years after Jesus died, was resurrected, and ascended to Heaven, would have noticed the changes in the copies of the Scriptures? If they were true followers of Christ, they definitely would have noticed, and would not have put up with the changes.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Why do you believe God does not have the power to preserve an accurate copy of His Inspired Scriptures? He has the power to part the Red Sea, but not to preserve His Written Word? (End of Quote)
God has the power... He just does not have the NEED. Prior to His Son, He had the Law written... on stone tablets... and in Books... by Moses and the Prophets. Because... that is the means by which He SPOKE to us. NOW... He speaks to us... by means of His SON... the Holy Spirit... which One, a the FINE Shepherd... leads us... "into ALL truth."
Well, Jesus promised that He would preserve His Words and the Old Testament. I take Jesus at His Word.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Also, it does not make much sense to claim that the Old Testament was Inspired, but the New Testament was not. (End of Quote)
Not really, if you understand the TRUTH of it:
1. The Old Testament was only WRITTEN... because the people could not bear to HEAR it. God WAS going to come down and give it directly to them, at Sinai. But... His "arrival" was more than they could bear... so... they asked Moses... to go up and GET IT FOR THEM! I won't tell you what I think about that...
God WANTED to speak to the people directly and make His Covenant with them... directly. It was the people... who did not want that... who WANTED... a "mediator": Moses.
So, do you actually believe that after God spoke His Commands, that He would not have had it written it down?
AGuest said:
2. Things CHANGED... with the institution of the NEW Covenant: true, there is still a mediator... but that is because WE... lack the FAITH... cleanliness... to approach God on our own. So... we have to approach... THROUGH THE SON. However, one MAJOR feature of the NEW Covenant... distinguishing it from the OLD Covenant... is that it is NOT written on stone tablets... or on paper in delible ink! Rather... it is written... ON HEARTS... on tablets... of FLESH.
No, we have a Mediator because we are born in sin, and the Absolute Holy God cannot tolerate any sin in His Presence without Jesus being the Mediator and washing us clean in His Blood. Faith is a gift from God. You can pray for more faith, but only God gives faith. We cannot get more faith by ourselves. It would not matter how much faith we had, we would still need Jesus as our Mediator, because we are born in sin.
The New Covenant is written in our hearts by Jesus Christ. The New Testament was written on paper by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles and Disciples of Christ.
In fact, look what happened when the Pharisees tried to have an "Oral Law". Their "traditions of men" ended up being more important to them than the Written Scriptures.
The same thing can happen today if people forsake the Written Scriptures.
Think about this:
If one person were to tell you that Jesus told him that He had returned to earth, and He is living in Antarctica, and then someone else claims that Jesus told him that He had returned to earth, and was living in Israel, and then a third person says that Jesus told him that He returned invisibly in 1914. Who should you believe? Should you believe that any of them have actually heard from Jesus?
That is the major problem that happens when you do not use the Scriptures as the main authority.
You see, if you had been using the Scriptures as the main authority, you would look up the Scriptures, and find the following Verses:
Matthew 24:23-27: Then if someone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will be raised up, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you in advance. Therefore if they should say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes out from the east and flashes to the west, so shall also be the coming of the Son of Man.
Then, you would know that all three of those people would have been lying, because Jesus Himself in the Holy Scriptures, told everyone that He would return like lightning, and everyone will see Him.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Basically, that would mean God did not want to Inspire an accurate Gospel about what His Son Jesus did on Earth, which is the most important event in the history of the Universe, but God did want to Inspire the Old Testament, which contained over 300 prophesies about the coming of Jesus? (End of Quote)
Sort of. The first, the OT, was written by the Moses, the Prophets and others, including David... as a TUTOR... leading Israel to Christ. Once Messiah CAME, however, Israel should no longer have NEEDED a written law; instead, all they NEEDED to do... was listen to THAT ONE. But... that would require... FAITH. It was due to the LACK of faith... that some of the Apostles, Paul, Mark and James put things down in writing: some just didn't GET it... or couldn't exercise faith in it... UNLESS THEY SAW IT IN WRITING. We were told, however, that faith has to do with that which is NOT "beheld"... or seen... and thus, we are to keep our eyes on the things UNSEEN. My Lord... now being a spirit... is INVISIBLE. But his VOICE... is not obscured. That's why he said, "MY sheep... know my voice."
First of all, Jesus is 100% Spirit and 100% Human in Heaven.
Christians do not have a Written Law, but rather, written principles. Actually, though, there are at least five Written Commandments for Christians that Jesus Himself gave:
1: Love God with your whole heart, whole mind, and whole soul.
2: Believe in and follow the True Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, and His Resurrection.
3: Love your neighbor as yourself.
4: Do to others what you want them to do to you.
5: Love your enemies.
AGuest said:
I give you Paul - he SAW nothing; it was what he HEARD... and who he heard it FROM... that changed him. I find it funny that the men with him heard it, too... and yet, there is no record of what occurred with THEM. I also find it worthy to note that in the case of those who DO hear... from Noah to the Apostle John... there was no one present to CORROBORATE what they heard... and yet, many believe that they did.
The Apostle John did see and hear the Revelation.
The Apostle Paul saw the glorious light from Jesus Christ and then was blinded by His wonderful glory and light.
The people who were walking with Paul did not hear the voice of Jesus, only Paul did, as Paul explains in the following Verse:
Acts 22:9: "And those who were with me observed the light and became terrified, but they did not hear the voice of the One speaking to me.
The ones walking with Paul heard Paul talking to Jesus, but they did not hear the voice of Christ.
AGuest said:
I tell you what I hear... and who I hear it from (for it is not of my own origination and I readily confess that)... and yet, you do not "receive it". What am I to do for YOU?
Well, why did Jesus and Paul and John give the following warnings?
Matthew 24:11: Then many false prophets will be raised up, and they will deceive many.
Matthew 24:24-26: For false christs and false prophets will be raised up, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you in advance. Therefore if they should say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Galatians 1:8: But even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4: But I fear, lest perhaps as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes to you preaches another Jesus whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you did not accept, you may well put up with him! (Verses 13-15:) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
1 John 4:1: Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Well, now you have said that only The Father is the "Maker and Former" of all things and that The Father alone stretches out the Heavens and spreads out the earth, and that The Father did so ALONE in "the beginning".
Yes, that is what my Lord has told me...
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) The following Scriptures are talking about THE SON, and they say that THE SON "laid the foundation of the earth", and made the Heavens: Hebrews 1:10: And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands. (End of Quote)
(Smile!) Okay, this is exactly what is meant by not being able to completely trust what is written. Let me explain what I know... from my Lord:
If you will take a look at Hebrews 1:7, you will notice that it says, "with reference to the angels HE says," yes? May I ask you... who is the "he" that is being spoken of? We would ASSUME that it's talking about God, wouldn't we? That, in truth, it should be written as: "with reference to the angels God says..." yes? Well, that's incorrect. The "he"... is the PSALMIST who wrote the original passage. How do we know? Because they are ALL quotes from the Psalms:
"And he makes his angels spirits and his public servants a flame of fire." - Psalm Psalm 104:4
"God is your throne forever and ever and the scepter of your kingship is the scepter of righteousness. You loved righteousness and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your god, anointed YOU with the oil of exultation (which, BTW, is holy spirit) more than your partners" - Psalm 45:6, 7
That is a horrible Translation of Psalm 45:6-7, is that the New World Translation? "God is your throne"??? All of the reputable Translations say "Your throne, O God".
AGuest said:
And... for the paragraphs says, "And"... (and please note that the following is another example of "tampering", for it is a MISQUOTE - stated as it is to support someone's personal belief that it was my Lord who did these thing - the original words did NOT include the words "O, Lord"...)
How do you know? The words "O Lord" or "O Yahweh" are in the Greek Septuagint. So how do you know that the Hebrew Text that the Septuagint used was not the correct Text?
The Septuagint Text of Deuteronomy is also what was quoted in Hebrews 1:6, when it says "let all the angels of God worship Him", which was NOT in the Hebrew Text that we have today in the Bible Translations.
AGuest said:
"You, at beginning (or rather, "in the ark/arch") [O Lord], laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are works of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same and your years never run out." - Psalm 102:26I would suggest you actually read the Psalms to see what they SAID... verses what they have been quoted to say. Oh, and I must tell you that, although written by men, the Psalms, with the exception of a few... are the words of my Lord... HIM speaking... and such men writing down what HE said... while "in spirit". Thus, this last quote, would be MY LORD... speaking of... MY FATHER... and validating just who it was that created what. I urge you... read the Psalm itself.
False, absolutely false.
Why on earth would Hebrews 1:10 quote something said to The Father and try to use it to support the fact that The Son is greater than the angels?
The writer of Hebrews, at Hebrews 1:10, right in the middle of a long discussion trying to prove that Jesus is better than the angels, and then all of a sudden, he quotes a Verse to prove that The Father is better than angels????? That makes no sense!
Who would have ever questioned the fact that The Father is better than angels???
But there were several false teachers who taught that The Son was an angel, just as there are several false teachers who do the same today, and that is what the writer of Hebrews was disproving.
The Holy Spirit revealed to the writer of Hebrews that Psalm 102:25 was The Father speaking through the human Psalmist to The Son.
Basically, it all comes down to what the Scriptures actually say, doesn't it?
You have ignored context. Context is so extremely important.
You have claimed that the "He" in Hebrews 1:7 is not talking about the Father, well, your claim is false, and I'll show you why:
Hebrews 1:5-10: For to which of the angels did HE ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten You"? AND AGAIN: "I will be to Him for a Father, and He shall be to Me for a Son"? But when HE again brings the Firstborn into the world, HE says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." AND on the one hand HE says to the angels, "He who makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire." BUT TO THE SON: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions." AND: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
Now, I ask you AGuest, who is the "He" in Hebrews 1:5? Who is the "He" that is "bringing The Firstborn into the world" in Hebrews 1:6?
It is the same "He" that is mentioned in Hebrews 1:7. The context shows that the entire Chapter 1 of Hebrews is showing what The Father has said about The Son in the Psalms and comparing that with what The Father has said about angels.
The Father, through Inspiration, spoke those words through the Psalmists. The words did not originate with the Psalmists, they originated with The Father.
AGuest said:
And the third quote, which you use here to support your position (which, unfortunately, is false), is a quote of what the Psalmist said, when speaking the words OF MY LORD... while "in spirit" or under inspiration... which words of my Lord... were ABOUT... his Father and my Father, his God and my God, JAH.
See what I said above.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) First of all, how do you know Proverbs 8:22 is talking about The Son? (End of Quote)
The Son himself told me... when I asked how I could explain to those who asked me just how it is that he speaks. I had never seen these verses before that... and it was him that led me to them and explained them to me.
That's not convincing enough for me.
I could tell people The Son told me He is Almighty God, but would you believe me? Should you believe me without checking with the Scriptures?
I would be lying, because I have not heard the Son speak to me. But The Son has revealed to me in His Word, The Bible, that He is The Almighty.
Also, in Proverbs, if "Wisdom" is The Son, then who is "Understanding"?
Proverbs 7:1-5: My son, keep my words and store up my commandments within you. Keep my commandments and live; and keep my law as the pupil of your eye. Bind them upon your fingers; write them upon the tablet of your heart. Say to wisdom, You are my sister; and call understanding your kinsman, so that THEY may keep you from the strange woman, from the stranger who flatters with her words.
Wisdom is a "sister" and Understanding is a "relative", and THEY are separate. So who is "Understanding"?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) How do you know it is not just a symbolism for Wisdom? (End of Quote)
Besides him telling me, he had me read the entire chapter. I would urge you to do the same. I would also urge you to GO TO HIM... and ASK... if you are indeed wishing, thirsting... and wanting to hear.
AGuest, I went to Jesus in July 2001, I go to Jesus everyday, though not often enough.
I asked Jesus in July 2001 to reveal to me the Truth about Himself and the Truth about the Watchtower Society. He answered me. He showed me through His Holy Scriptures that He is the Almighty God, and that The Father and The Holy Spirit are also the Almighty God, but they are separate Persons.
That was not easy at first to believe, especially after 18+ years of being taught by the Watchtower Society that the Trinity is pagan, and that I would be destroyed for believing it, and that Jesus does not deserve worship, and should not be prayed to.
After studying and studying in the Scriptures, and praying and praying, Jesus revealed the Truth of the Trinity to me.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) After all, it does call Wisdom "she" and "her" in Proverbs Chapter 9. (End of Quote)
It does do that, doesn't it? I would direct you, then, as my Lord directed me: to Chapter 1:20-33, and Matthew 17:5.
Well, I'm not sure what Matthew 17:5 has to do with this subject, but Proverbs 1:20-33 is very interesting, and I will do more studying and praying and research into those Verses.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) If it is talking about Jesus, then notice this Verse:Proverbs 8:27: When He prepared the Heaven, I was present with Him; and when He prepared His throne upon the winds (End of Quote)Wonderful! I am glad you bring this one up, too! Did you notice what it says in verse 30? You might see (in your particular version, and certainly in the NWT) that is says, "then I came to be beside him as a "master worker". Yes? Well, that, too, is false, a "tampering." For the Hebrew word here, "amohn", is NOT "worker"... but "fosterling" in the manner of one being raised (reared) by... or TAUGHT by. Since I did not know of myself which was true, I had to listen to my Lord. He said that he was a "faithful LEARNER" of my Father... and directed me to: John 5:19-21 and 8:28.Thus, the Father TAUGHT the Son all things, and he (the Son), in turn, by means of holy spirit... teaches US... all things.
John 13:13
John 14:6, 16, 17, 26
John 15:26
1 John 2:2
Acts 9:4, 5, 10-16
Some Translations read "Master Worker" (or something similar) and some read "fosterling" (or something similar).
Let's see what the Hebrew Bible Dictionaries say about that word:
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Dictionary Definition of "amon":
Artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman
_______________________________
Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "amon":
Probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect: - one brought up._______________________________
To be honest, I do not know which is the correct Translation, but I believe the King James Version is the most accurate, and it reads like this:
Proverbs 8:30: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Like I said before, I cannot explain all the wonderful truths of the amazing relationship of The Father and The Son and The Spirit. In the same way, I cannot explain how God has always existed, can you?
I do agree with everything that the Bible says, and I also agree with John 5:19-21. I have just discovered an interesting fact about John 5:19-21: Jesus said He could not do anything that The Father would not do, and that means that it was impossible for Jesus to sin, because The Father cannot sin, and I believe that this shows Jesus was the Almighty, because every created angel and every created human can sin.
Also, notice John 5:23, where Jesus says everyone should honor Him equally with His Father, which no created being should ever say.
Also, I agree completely with John 8:28. But have you noticed another part of John 8:28?
John 8:28: Therefore Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and from Myself I do nothing; but just as My Father taught Me, these things I speak.
Jesus said that He is "I AM" [See Exodus 3:14].
Jesus even said that if you do not believe that He is "I AM", you will die in your sins:
John 8:24: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) If that is talking about The Son, then The Son said He was WITH The Father when The Father created Heaven and Earth. Now, that directly contradicts Isaiah 44:24, in which Yahweh said no one was WITH Him when He created Heaven & Earth, UNLESS The Son AND The Father are Yahweh. (End of Quote)
My Lord being WITH my Father, dear one, at the time of the heavens and earth being spread out, does NOT mean my Lord MADE them. When my Father says that He MADE them... by Himself... that is the truth. My Lord WAS there... watching... learning. Why? Because, as the HEIR... he would one day RECEIVE such power and ability. Since it was not his automatically, but GIVEN to him... he had to be shown what and how. And he learned... faithfully and obediently.
Have you read Isaiah 44:24? It doesn't sound like you have.
The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible: So says Jehovah, your Redeemer and your Former from the womb; I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens, I alone spreading out the heavens. Who was with Me
Revised Standard Version: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth-- Who was with me?--
World English Bible: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?);
1898 Young's Literal Translation: Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: `I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth--who is with Me?
1901 American Standard Version: Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);
1965 Bible in Basic English: The Lord, who has taken up your cause, and who gave you life in your mother's body, says, I am the Lord who makes all things; stretching out the heavens by myself, and giving the earth its limits; who was with me?
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible: Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, and thy maker, from the womb: I am the Lord, that make all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that established the earth, and there is none with me.
Modern King James Version: So says Jehovah, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Jehovah who makes all things; who stretches out the heavens alone; who spreads out the earth; who was with Me?
Amplified Bible: Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and He Who formed you from the womb: I am the Lord, Who made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the earth by Myself [who was with Me]?
New Living Translation: The LORD, your Redeemer and Creator, says: "I am the LORD, who made all things. I alone stretched out the heavens. By myself I made the earth and everything in it.
King James Version: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Brenton's 1851 English Septuagint: Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.
1889 Darby Bible: Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, the maker of all things; who alone stretched out the heavens, who did spread forth the earth by myself;
Good News Translation: "I am the LORD, your savior; I am the one who created you. I am the LORD, the Creator of all things. I alone stretched out the heavens; when I made the earth, no one helped me.
GOD'S WORD Translation: The LORD reclaimed you. He formed you in the womb. This is what the LORD says: I, the LORD, made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself. I spread out the earth all alone.
1833 Webster Bible: Thus saith the LORD thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself
New International Version: "This is what the LORD says- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
New American Standard Bible: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,
English Standard Version: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
New King James Version: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
21st Century King James Version: "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb: I am the LORD that maketh all things, that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself;
Even the Anti-Trinity "New World Translation" reads: This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
Isaiah 44:24 says extremely clearly that (1) Yahweh created all things ALONE and (2) BY HIMSELF and (3) NO ONE WAS WITH HIM.
Job 9:8 also says Yahweh created Heaven ALONE.
Therefore, if Jesus was not Yahweh, and Jesus was with Yahweh when He created all things, then Isaiah 44:24 is false.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Also, if Jesus is the "Wisdom" in Proverbs Chapters 8 and 9, and Jesus has not always existed, does that mean God The Father, before Jesus was created, did not have wisdom? (End of Quote)
No, dear one. It means that prior to my Lord being "produced" as God's "Way"... wisdom existed only IN God. It was not an "it", per se, until it was brought OUT of God, in the form of my Lord. HE... "manifests" God... and God's qualities... to earthling man. There is no other way.
Let us read Proverbs Chapter 8 (King James Version):
Proverbs 8:1: Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Proverbs 8:2: She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
Proverbs 8:3: She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Proverbs 8:4: Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
Proverbs 8:5: O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Proverbs 8:6: Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Proverbs 8:7: For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Proverbs 8:8: All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Proverbs 8:9: They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Proverbs 8:10: Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Proverbs 8:11: For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Proverbs 8:12: I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Proverbs 8:13: The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Proverbs 8:14: Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Proverbs 8:15: By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
Proverbs 8:16: By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
Proverbs 8:17: I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Proverbs 8:18: Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
Proverbs 8:19: My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Proverbs 8:20: I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
Proverbs 8:21: That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
Proverbs 8:22: The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:23: I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24: When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25: Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverbs 8:26: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverbs 8:27: When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverbs 8:28: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverbs 8:29: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverbs 8:30: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Proverbs 8:31: Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:32: Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Proverbs 8:33: Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Proverbs 8:34: Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverbs 8:35: For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD.
Proverbs 8:36: But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Facts about "Wisdom" from Proverbs Chapter 8:
"Wisdom" dwells with "Prudence", so if "Wisdom" is a Person, then who is "Prudence"?
Yahweh possessed "Wisdom" in the beginning of Yahweh's way, before Yahweh ever created anything.
"Wisdom" was set up from everlasting, from the beginning. [See Genesis 1:1]
"Wisdom" was brought forth before the earth was created.
Before Heaven was created, "Wisdom" was there.
"Wisdom" was with Yahweh when Heaven and Earth were created.
Nothing there says that "Wisdom" was ever created. In fact, it says "Wisdom" is from everlasting, from the beginning [before time existed]!
Notice, the same exact thing is said about Yahweh:
Psalm 90:2: Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psalm 93:2: Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Isaiah 63:16: Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Habakkuk 1:12: Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Psalm 41:13: Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psalm 103:17: But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Psalm 106:48: Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
The Scriptures also say that Jesus is "from everlasting":
Micah 5:2: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
You tell me, AGuest, what does the phrase "from everlasting" mean?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Who or what do you believe The Holy Spirit is? (End of Quote)
It is the helper, the Paraclete... the SPIRIT... that is my Lord... glorified. Prior to his death, all that he did and taught was limited, even temporary. After his death and resurrection as the GLORIFIED Son of God (which glory he had before he came and was granted again shortly before he died)... he was/is able to do MUCH more. Those resurrected by him BEFORE... died again. Those healed... obviously became sick again, or at least aged... for they died... again. Those fed... became hungry again. Those who drank... became thirsty... again. But as the LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT... those who are blind have their eyes "really" opened; those who are lame, can truly "walk". Those who were hungry, but now feed on him... never hunger again. And those who thirst... but now drink from him... never thirst again.
Well, I do agree that The Son is a Spirit, just like The Father is a Spirit. I also believe that The Son has a Human Nature and a Spirit Nature in Heaven, just like He had on Earth.
However, there are several Scriptures that show that the Holy Spirit [Spirit of Truth], is the Third Person of God, a separate and distinct Person from The Father and The Son, and here are some of those Scriptures:
John 14:16-17: And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Helper, so that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
Jesus said that He would ask The Father, and The Father would send ANOTHER Helper to Christians.
What does the Greek word for "ANOTHER" ["allos"] mean?
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "Allos":
another, other
_________________________
Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "Allos":
“else”, that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), other._________________________
Also, notice this Verse:
John 15:26: "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.
Jesus sends the Spirit from The Father, and The Spirit testifies about Jesus. So, does that mean Jesus is sending Himself to testify about Himself? Not according to the way our Lord worded that sentence.
Also notice:
John 16:7-15: Nevertheless I speak the truth to you. It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I am going to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take from what is Mine and He will announce it to you. All things which the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He takes from what is Mine and will announce it to you.
From those Words of our Lord, we can see the following facts:
* Jesus sends The Holy Spirit.
* The Holy Spirit does not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears from The Son He speaks.
* The Holy Spirit glorifies The Son.
* The Father gave all things to Jesus. The Holy Spirit takes from what Jesus has, and announces it to Christians.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6: Now there are varieties of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are varieties of activities, but the same God works all in all. (Verse 11:) But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Notice in those Verses, "God" [The Father], "Lord" [The Son], and "Spirit" are mentioned as being separate Persons, and then it proves that The Spirit is a Person by saying that HE gives to each one just as HE WILLS.
The following Verses in Ephesians show the same thing:
Ephesians 4:4-6: There is... one Spirit... one Lord... one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. (Verse 30:) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
There are obviously Three separate Persons mentioned in the following Verses:
Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
2 Corinthians 13:14: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
Romans 15:30: Now I beg you, brothers, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in prayers to God on my behalf,
Acts 7:55: But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking intently into Heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
Acts 10:38: Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all those who were oppressed by the Devil, because God was with Him.
Titus 3:4-7: But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we did, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 8:11: But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit indwelling in you. (Verse 16:) The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11: And such were some of you! But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Ephesians 2:18-22: Because through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a Holy Temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
(Also notice Ephesians 2:18-22 says we should build on the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles)
Also notice:
Acts 1:1-2: The former account I made concerning all things, O Theophilus, which Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the Apostles whom He had chosen,
Those Verses say that Jesus gave Commandments to the Apostles through The Holy Spirit, so He obviously did not give Commandments through Himself.
Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Verse 17:) "And it shall be in the last days", says God, "that I will pour from My Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;" (Verses 32-33:) "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we all are witnesses." "Therefore having being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. (Verse 38:) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Those Verses show a few different facts:
* God prophesied that He would pour out His Spirit.
* When Jesus was raised up, The Father gave Jesus the promise of The Holy Spirit.
* Jesus then poured out The Holy Spirit.
* The Apostles and Disciples were filled with The Holy Spirit.
* The Holy Spirit then gave the Christians the ability to speak in different tongues as He willed.
Hebrews 9:14: by how much more shall the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, will cleanse your conscience from dead works in order that we might serve the Living God?
Jesus offered Himself as a Sacrifice TO The Father THROUGH The Holy Spirit.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) The Scriptures are very clear that The Son is the Almighty God, regardless of whether or not walking on water could only be done by God.
I disagree... and do not see where you have proven such "clarity" at all.
Revelation 1:7-8: Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen!. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "He who is and He who was and He who is to come, The Almighty."
Revelation 21:6: And He said to me, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give from the spring of the water of life freely to him that is thirsty.
You do agree that The Alpha and The Omega is The Almighty, correct?
Isaiah 41:4: Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, am the First and the Last; I am He.
Isaiah 44:6: So says Yahweh, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer Yahweh of Hosts; I am the First, and I am the Last; and besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:11-12: For My sake, for My sake I will do it; for why should My Name be defiled? And I will not give My glory to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the First, I also am the Last.
Do you believe that The First and The Last is The Almighty?
Well, the following Scriptures reveal that THE SON is The Alpha and The Omega, and The First and The Last!
Revelation 1:17: And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He put His right hand on me, saying, "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last.
Revelation 2:8: "And to the angel of the Church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who became dead, and came to life
Revelation 22:12-16: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Blessed are those who do His Commandments, so that their right shall be to the tree of life, and they may enter by the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and drug users and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices a lie. I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you for the Churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Jesus walked on water by His OWN authority and power. Jesus had His OWN authority and power over the forces of nature, which is shown when Jesus rebukes the wind. (End of Quote)
Hmmm... by his words recorded at John 5:19 and 30... it would seem that my Lord... disagrees with you, too.
I think my statement is in agreement with the Scriptures, including John 5:19 and 5:30.
Jesus said that He has His own authority to forgive sins:
Matthew 9:6: But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on the earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
Jesus also said He had His own authority over Satan and demons:
Luke 10:17-19: Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." And He said to them, "I saw Satan having fallen like lightning out of heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Do you know why Jesus has His own authority over Satan, demons, nature, and sins?
Because Jesus is the Creator! He created all the angels and all the humans, and all of nature, therefore, He has authority over it all. (Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:10; Ephesians 3:9; John 1:1-3; Hebrews 1:2)
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) This is shown by the fact that Peter asked JESUS to give him the ability to walk out to Jesus. Peter did not ask The Father to give him this ability, and also Jesus was the One who gave Peter the ability to come out on the water, not The Father. (End of Quote)
That does not prove your position, however, but only that which my Lord himself said: that HE... could not do a single thing of HIS own initiative. So, he RECEIVED the power and ability that he granted to Peter, from someone higher than himself.
The fact that The Son only does what The Father would do, does not in any way rule out the fact that Jesus has His own authority and power as God The Son, it does, however, show that The Son willingly does the Will of His Father.
To put it another way, The Father would only do what The Son would do. Does that mean that The Father does not have His own authority over nature, and over creation?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Another thing that clearly shows that Jesus had His OWN authority and power to walk on water, is the reactions of the people on the boats:
Matthew 8:27: So the men marveled, saying, "What kind of Man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
Matthew 14:33: Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God." (End of Quotes)
No, this only shows just what it says: that my Lord is the SON of God... and used the power and abilities GRANTED him... BY God.
Why didn't the people on the boat worship God in Heaven who you say "granted Him this authority"? Because they realized that God The Son was with them in the boat! So they worshiped THE SON OF GOD (which is a title showing His Divine Nature)!
The "Son of Man" title means that Jesus was Human. The "Son of God" title means that Jesus was God.
If the title "The Son of God" was not implying that Jesus was God, then why did the Pharisees react this way:
Luke 22:66-71: And when it became day, the council of the elders of the people, the chief priests and scribes, came together and led Him into their council, saying, "If You are the Messiah, tell us." But He said to them, "If I tell you, you will by no means believe. But if I also question you, you will by no means answer Me or release Me. Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God."
This is very important -- notice that first the Pharisees ask Jesus if He is the Messiah, the Christ. Jesus basically told them that He was the Messiah, because He quoted Daniel 7:13 and applied it to Himself.
Did you notice that the Pharisees did not accuse Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be the Messiah, but instead, they asked another question:
Luke 22:70-71: Then they all said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am." And they said, "What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth!"
It was only after the Pharisees heard that Jesus was claiming to be The Son of God that they found Him guilty of blasphemy. The Pharisees knew what the title "The Son of God" meant.
The leaders of the Pharisees KNEW that Jesus was God in the Flesh, and they condemned Him for blasphemy and had Him tortured.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Greater, but not better. In the same way, The Father is greater than Jesus, but not better. Look up the Greek words for "greater" and for "better". (End of Quote)
I'm not even sure we're having that particular discussion, but for the sake of thus discussion, I am directed to refer you to Mark 10:17, 18.
I already commented on Mark 10:17-18 in my big Trinity post earlier in this Thread. I am posting the same info here:
The man who came to Jesus obviously thought Jesus was only a human, so I believe that Jesus was basically asking the man, "You think I am only a Man, so why do you call Me 'Good Teacher'. There is only One who is Truly Good and deserves to have the title 'Good', and that is God."
I believe that Jesus was actually trying to show that He was God, and that no one should be given the title "Good" except God.
In fact, Jesus Himself applies the Title "Good" to Himself:
John 10:11: I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His Life for the sheep.
John 10:14: I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My own, and I am known by My own.
And, who was the Good Shepherd in the Old Testament?
Psalm 23:1-6: Yahweh is my Shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in paths of righteousness for His Name's sake. Yes, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of Yahweh forever.
Isaiah 40:10-11: Behold, the Lord Yahweh will come with a strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him. He shall feed His flock like a shepherd; He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those with young.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Well, Isaiah 44:24 does say Yahweh created Heaven and Earth ALONE, BY HIMSELF, NO ONE WAS WITH HIM; which I also posted. (End of Quote)
Again, you are trusting in what the scribes have written. I must ask you, if what is written says one thing in one place... and another thing in another... why is it that we continually try to have them fit OUR beliefs (when, in truth, they can very well support either: God as Three equals in One... or the God being separate and distinct from the Son... etc., etc., )... rather than simply ASKING GOD... by means of ASKING HIS SON... what the TRUTH is? Why? Because it is EASIER to trust what we see with our eyes... than what we hear through the Spirit. And that is exactly what we've been told NOT to do. Ah, well...
Well, I only see one way of reconciling Isaiah 44:24 and Colossians 1:16, and that is Jesus is Yahweh (but He is not The Father).
Believe me, I ask Jesus and The Father very frequently to enlighten me and lead me to know the Truth of His Word. The Father and Jesus have answered my prayers numerous times.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) JAH is One, and yet, JAH is an "Us". Can you comprehend that? (End of Quote)
If it were true, indeed I could. However, since it is FALSE... I must reject it.
I don't agree with that, but you are free to believe what you want.
AGuest said:
Rather, I must accept what my Lord has told me... that JAH is one... and that the "us" was he AND the Father, two separate and distinct individuals. Like a man and woman who make a child.
I agree 100% with that statement. The Father is separate and distinct from The Son. However, I believe They are in union as One God, just like husband and wife are in union as "one flesh".
AGuest, do you believe that the husband and wife are TWO PERSONS who are in union as ONE FLESH? Do you believe that, even though they are in union as one flesh, that the husband is the head?
That is what I believe about God. I believe that The Father is One Person. The Son is another Person. The Spirit is another Person. They are in union as One God. The Father is the Head of The Son. The Father and The Son are the Head of The Holy Spirit.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) The problem with all that is that no where in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was ever created (End of Quote)
Proverbs 8:22, Revelation 3:14 (for scriptures), and Colossians 1:15 (for additional support).
I'm not really convinced that Proverbs 8 is describing Jesus.
Either way, it would mean that Yahweh created wisdom at one time, and before that He did not have wisdom.
But, thankfully, the most reliable Translations read differently at Proverbs 8:22:
King James Version: The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
New King James Version: "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
Modern King James Version: Jehovah possessed me from the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
21st Century King James Version: "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
Third Millennium Bible: "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
1901 American Standard Version: Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
New American Standard Bible: "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
1889 Darby Bible: Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
The Literal Translation of The Holy Bible: Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, from then, before His works.
World English Bible: "Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, Before his deeds of old.
1833 Webster Bible: The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
1898 Young's Literal Translation: Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.
GOD'S WORD Translation: "The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works.
English Standard Version: "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
New Century Version: "I, wisdom, was with the Lord when he began his work, long before he made anything else.
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible: The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.
The Greek word used for "possessed" in Proverbs 8:22 is "Qanah". Qanah appears 86 times in the King James Version. Not once is it translated as "created" or "create" or "made" or "make".
Here is how it is translated in the King James Version:
"Buy" - 26 times.
"Bought" - 21 times.
"Get" - 12 times.
"Getting" - 1 time.
"Got" - 3 times.
"Gotten" - 1 time.
"Purchased" - 5 times.
"Buyer" - 3 times.
"Possessed" - 3 times.
"Possessor" - 2 times.
"Possessors" - 1 time.
"Owner" - 1 time.
"Attain" - 1 time.
"Keep" - 1 time.
"Jealosy" - 1 time.
"Recover" - 1 time.
"Redeemed" - 1 time.
"Verily" - 1 time.
"Cattle" - 1 time.
Also, here are how some different Translations read at Revelation 3:14:
The Literal Translation of The Holy Bible: And to the angel of the assembly of Laodicea, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God
Modern King James Version: And to the angel of the church of the Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Head of the creation of God, says these things
World English Bible: "To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things
1898 Young's Literal Translation: `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God
New International Version (NIV): "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
Amplified Bible: And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation
New Living Translation: "Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen--the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation
Worldwide English New Testament: `Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made.
New Revised Standard Version: "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin of God's creation
Holman Christian Standard Bible: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says
I believe that that is what it means when it says Jesus was the beginning of God's creation in Revelation 3:14.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) and no where does it say "everything else" was created by Jesus. That is a false and deceptive claim that the Watchtower uses. In fact, the Watchtower even inserts words into the New Testament that were never in the original:
Colossians 1:16-18 (New World Translation): because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; (End of Quote)
I agree they added words... but somewhere above, YOU said that it was okay to do so. Yes?
No. It is okay to add words for the sole purpose of making the sentence make sense in English, and then ONLY IF it does NOT change the meaning of the original Text, and if you add any words, they should be clearly shown that they have been added in order for the sentence to make sense.
By adding "other" 4 times in Colossians 1:16-18 in the New World Translation, the Watchtower Society changed the MEANING of those Verses. Instead of those Verses proclaiming Jesus as The Creator, as the original Text does, the New World Translation says that He is a creation.
Let me show an example here:
Proverbs 8:24: When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Do you think God forbids adding those words in Proverbs 8:24 in order for the sentence to make sense in English? I don't think so, because the meaning was not changed, in fact the meaning was made more clear.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Also, you claim that since Jesus is called "Firstborn" that this means He was created first. (End of Quote)
I think it SAYS... "firstborn OF CREATION..."
Yes, you are right. But does that mean that Jesus is part of creation because it says Jesus is "The Firstborn of creation" or "The Firstborn over creation"?
Well, check out the following Verses:
Revelation 15:3: And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Since that Verse says God is "King of saints", does that mean God is a human saint? No, it means He is King OVER human saints.
Matthew 11:25: At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Since The Father is "Lord of Heaven and Earth", does that mean that The Father is Heaven and is Earth? No, it means that The Father is Lord OVER Heaven and OVER Earth.
Matthew 15:31: Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.
Since God is called "God of Israel" does that mean God is Israel? No, it means He is God OVER Israel.
Matthew 22:32: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Since God is called "The God of Abraham"? Does that mean God is Abraham? No, it means He is God OVER Abraham.
Now let's look at Colossians 1:15:
Colossians 1:15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
So, you see, in Colossians 1:15, it is saying that Jesus is The Firstborn OVER all creation.
What if Colossians 1:15 had read like this:
Colossians 1:15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the Lord of every creature
If it had read like that, you would not be saying that Jesus was part of creation would you? But, in actuality, that is what Colossians 1:15 is saying -- Jesus is the Preeminent One over all creation!
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Jesus is called The Firstborn from the dead. What does that mean? Does that mean Jesus is the "First created from the dead"? Definitely not. That makes no sense. Or, does it mean Jesus was the first person ever raised from the dead? No. Was Jesus the first person raised from the dead in an Immortal Body? Yes. (End of Quote)
My Lord was not created from the dead, nor was he the first ever raised from the dead. He was the first... to come to LIFE... that is, the REAL life... from which he would never die again. If my Lord were God... and God cannot die... what need would He (God) have... to put on an immortal body? The one He had and has... is immortal, dear one.
I would like to try and explain what I believe on that subject:
You are correct that God's Divine Nature [His Spirit Nature] cannot die, it is, and always has been Immortal.
That is why Jesus, being God, added a Mortal Human Nature [His Human Body and Human Soul] to His Divine Nature.
Then, Jesus sacrificed His Human Nature (not His Divine Nature), and then He took back His Human Nature on the third day. But, now His Human Nature was glorified and made Immortal -- now His Human Body cannot ever die again!
The Divine Nature of Jesus has never and will never go out of existence.
Jesus, in Heaven, is now 100% Human and 100% God, just like He was on Earth, only now, His Human Body is Immortal.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Why then, is He called "Firstborn from the dead", because Jesus has Preeminence over all others who are raised from the dead. (End of Quote)
He is called "firstborn"... because he was the FIRST... to be BORN... "again"... FROM womb of the Woman (for a man cannot enter back into the womb of his fleshly mother so as to born again, can he?)... THE SPIRIT REALM... in the manner NOT of the flesh... but OF THE SPIRIT... according to A PROMISE. As that Firstborn son, he is indeed entitled to a "double" share; that is why he is anointed with the oil of exultation... MORE than his partners... us.
Revelation 12:1, 2, 5, Isaiah 54:1; Galatians 4:24-21
I personally think it is wrong to say that Jesus was "Born Again". Saying that Jesus was "Born Again" implies that Jesus was a sinner who needed to be "Born Again" in order to enter into Heaven. [See John 3:3]
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Also, notice how the English Majority Text Version and the International Standard Version read at Colossians 1:15: English Majority Text Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation, International Standard Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation.
There is also a different Greek word that could have been used if Paul had been saying that Jesus was the First-Created One, instead of the Firstborn One. (End of Quote)
You assume that he didn't... and that what he did use was translated absolutely correctly. I do not. Therefore, I must ask my Lord.
I am not an expert at all on ancient Greek or Hebrew words. All I know is from what I have studied using the Thayer and Strong's Bible Dictionaries.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) You mean "reading comprehension", such as reading the ENGLISH word "Ark" in John 1:1 instead of the GREEK word "Arche", which have two entirely DIFFERENT meanings, much like the words "whole" and "hole"? I can do without that kind of "reading comprehension". (End of Quote)
The English word "ark"... is a mistransliteration of the Greek word, "arche"... which is pronounced the same. There are several meanings for the word, "box/container," "beginning," and "chief", to name a few. The Ark of the Covenant was a BOX... meant to depict the womb of the Woman... in which my Lord was first PRODUCED... as the "Son of [God's] love" FOR the Woman... the spirit realm... and then HE became the "cover" to that "box"... so that all things coming into existence... CAME THROUGH HIM. It was IN the "box"; the only way OUT... and into existence... was THROUGH him, the cover or propitiatory.
I think I like that illustration and I think I pretty much agree with it. The only thing I don't agree with is, I have not seen in any Dictionary that the Greek word "Arche" can mean "box/container".
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Really, I don't want to argue over this point. I have already shown that dozens of Bible Translations say "by" in that Verse. It could also be properly translated as "through" or "in" or "by means of", so I'm not going to argue about that. (End of Quote)
How, then, do YOU know which... is correct... if any of them are?
Good question. Well, I examine all the different Verses that talk about creation, and then I try to determine what they are saying.
By examining Genesis 1:1, Genesis 1:26-27, Isaiah 44:24, Colossians 1:15-17, John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10, and Ephesians 3:9, I have come to the following conclusion:
God The Father and God The Son both created all things together.
AGuest said:
Dear one, if my Lord IS "the beginning"... or PART of "the beginning"... by means of being part OF the "arche"... how can he create something IN "the beginning"? It was my Father who did so.
Revelation 3:14
The Bible says that The Father is The Beginning also:
Revelation 21:6: And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
The Bible also says that God [The Father] and The Word were together "in the beginning":
John 1:2: The same was in the beginning with God.
Also, I am curious what you think about these two Verses:
John 8:44: You are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
1 John 3:8: He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the Devil.
It says that the Devil was a murderer and was sinning from "the beginning" [Arche]. How do you explain that?
Hebrews 1:10 clearly shows that Jesus created Heaven and Earth "in the beginning".
1 John 1:1-2: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Those Verses show that Jesus was "from the beginning", and that He was with The Father, so how do you explain that?
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) The important thing is Colossians 1:17 says that Jesus existed BEFORE every single thing that has ever been created. Period. So if Jesus was created, Jesus existed BEFORE He was created, which makes no sense. (End of Quote)Colossians 1:17 makes no mention of what was created, when and by whom. It speaks... of what EXISTS.
You may be reading a different Bible then. I am going to let those beautiful Inspired Scriptures speak for themselves:
Colossians 1:12-20 (English Majority Text Version): giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, because by Him all things were created , those in the heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things , and in Him all things are held together. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence, For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on the earth or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
AGuest said:
I asked you:
just who is the HE who supposedly “says” to the Son…
And you replied, "The Father, as I said before." I refer you to the TRUTH of who the "he" is, above, and say to you, that even if it were the Father speaking to and/or OF the Son... by means of such dialogue, the two are separate.
Please see my response above. You are correct, The Father and The Son are separate Persons.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) the King James Version tells us which words have been added, by putting them in italics. (End of Quote)
And your point? The NWT does it with brackets. And other versions do it whatever way they do. Does that mean such versions are completely accurate and acceptable? How can you say is, over another?
First of all, the New World Translation only SOMETIMES tells people when they add words. Quite often, even when they add words that change the meaning of the Verse, there are no brackets and no italics in the New World Translation.
From what I have studied on the Internet and in Commentaries and Dictionaries and Encyclopedias, the King James Version is most accurate and reliable and HONEST, and the New World Translation is the exact opposite.
As far as I have seen, the King James Version only adds words to make the sentence make sense in English, and they always put the added words in gray italics.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) Context usually reveals whether it is talking about The God or a "god". Just like context reveals whether it is talking about "religious worship" (which only God deserves) or "obeisance" or "honor". (End of Quote)
"Usually", yes. So, then, how does one know when it is accurate? Oh, that's right... one must trust... in earthling's man "stylus", yes?
I have already shown why I believe Jesus is THE GOD. If Jesus is "a god", then you are a polytheist.
AGuest said:
AGuest said: And fourth, by way of example, my Lord directs me to give you the phrase “therefore, God, Your God,” in which the word is used in two (2) contexts, name and description, are both capitalized, but in using the title it should NOT be, so that IN TRUTH, if properly rendered, it should read “therefore, God (name), your god (description),” … which lends to the truth that the phrase “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,” would actually be correctly rendered as “Your throne, O god,” IF the “He” that “says” in the first place is God… speaking to and about Christ. For if not, then the first example would mean that my Father is calling His Son… HIS God. And that cannot be, for although my Father subjected all things to the Son, it is with the exception of Himself.
And you replied:
No, it would simply mean that The Father is saying that The Son is equally God. The Father did not say "Your throne, O My God", The Father simply said "Your throne, O God".
Again, I refer you to the Psalms, and to who was truly "speaking."
It was The Father speaking through the human Psalmist to The Son.
In reply to your latest comments, I will only say a few things:
When someone is "Born Again", they are Born of The Holy Spirit:
John 3:3-10: Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless someone is Born Again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born, being old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless someone is Born of Water and of Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is Born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be Born Again.' "The wind blows where it wills, and you hear its sound, but you do not know from where it comes and where it goes. So is everyone who has been Born of the Spirit." Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
Being "Born Again" and "Born of The Spirit" means that The Holy Spirit comes into your heart and you put all your faith and trust and hope in Jesus and His Sacrifice and Resurrection, and repent of your sins.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) You are correct, Matthew and Luke and John and Paul used several Scriptures throughout their Spirit-Inspired Books and Letters. So I am actually following the example of The Holy Spirit, who Inspired the Apostles to write those Books and Letters. (End of Quote)
These books are not inspired, dear one. My Lord tells us which books are "scripture", as Luke records. They are the books that those seeking Messiah "searched" BEFORE his arrival in the flesh. They were a "tutor" leading TO Christ. Once he came... HE was the Word. And Luke himself testifies that he was NOT inspired, writing that he wrote his account at the behest of Theophilus, a Roman/Greek ruler, who wasn't even a "christian" (for had he been, he would not have needed Luke's investigation as to what was what). Thus, THEOPHILUS employed him... and not God or Christ. In addition, he SAYS that he got his information from others, including some who were eyewitnesses. What does that mean? That he received what he did... from HUMANS... and NOT... from God. God neither told him to write it... nor gave him what he wrote. In both cases, earthling man did. And Luke himself testifies to this. I urge you: read his introduction to both his gospel, and his account of the acts of the apostles.
I don't agree with you, I believe God inspired Luke to write everything without mistakes.
However, even if you conclude that Luke is not inspired, on what basis do you say the other 3 Gospels are not?
The Apostle Peter said that Paul's Letters were Scriptures. I am going with Peter.
AGuest said:
(Quoting UnDisfellowshipped:) I agree that everyone who wants to know the Truth should pray to The Father and to Jesus Christ and ask for the Truth. (End of Quote)
I am compelled to ask you, dear UnDf'd... what YOU think my Lord means by his words... at:
John 8:32... John 14:6... and John 8:36.
John 8:32: And you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free."
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 8:36: Therefore if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free.
Wonderful and beautiful Scriptures. Some of my most favorite Verses.
Here is what I believe about those Verses:
Everyone is born a slave of sin. The only way to be freed from the enslavement of sin is by coming to Jesus, THE TRUTH, and being Born Again by the Spirit.
Also, for people who are enslaved by cults and false religions, those Verses take on extra meaning -- for when they come to JESUS, the TRUTH sets them FREE from the enslavement of the cult or false religion.