John 1:1 - A "Sacred Secret" Revealed

by AGuest 145 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

AGuest said:
Dearest UnDf'd... may you have peace.
Although I have stated that I would leave this thread and subject, your last question compels me to respond, for as my Lord said, "Keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking... and it will be opened to you." I, then, have no ground to leave you in a state of confusion... refusing to answer and respond just because I have grown... "weary". My Lord did not, and thus, I will not, but will endeavor to give to all who demand it, including you, a reason for my hope. Therefore, in answer to your question Now, AGuest, how do you explain Isaiah 44:24, when compared with Colossians 1:16, John 1:3, Ephesians 3:9, & Hebrews 1:10? There is a huge, major contradiction in those two Verses IF Jesus is not Yahweh...
Thank you for replying.
AGuest said:
and the various verses you supplied... my reply is:
You have still not grasped one of the primary truths of what I share with you: I... do not explain any of it. I only share with you what I... RECEIVE... from my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... the One about whom all of what we're discussing "bears witness". I do not rely, then, on what is "written" about him, for what has been "written"... is NOT untampered with, NOT literally translated, and NOT perfectly interpreted... by earthling man. Rather, I rely on what the One about whom such things are written says... and put faith in what I hear from him.
How do you know that the Scriptures are "NOT untampered with"? Do you have the original Greek or Hebrew manuscripts? Do you read Biblical Greek or Hebrew? Have you done research to find out how the early, early Church Fathers quoted the Scriptures (in order to find out what the Scriptures actually said in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Centuries)?
I agree that words were added so that English sentences would make sense, but those added words are clearly pointed out in the King James Version in italics.
I also agree that there are a few copyist errors, which most of the modern Translations have corrected.
Why do you believe God does not have the power to preserve an accurate copy of His Inspired Scriptures? He has the power to part the Red Sea, but not to preserve His Written Word?
Also, it does not make much sense to claim that the Old Testament was Inspired, but the New Testament was not.
Basically, that would mean God did not want to Inspire an accurate Gospel about what His Son Jesus did on Earth, which is the most important event in the history of the Universe, but God did want to Inspire the Old Testament, which contained over 300 prophesies about the coming of Jesus?
AGuest said:
With that said, I will share with you what HE gives as an explanation:
Isaiah 44:24: So says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh who makes all things; who stretches out the Heavens alone; who spreads out the earth; who was with Me?
My Father is, indeed, the "maker and former" of all things... and it was He alone who stretches out the heavens and spreads out the earth, just as it was He alone who did so "in the beginning," before He said, "Let there be Light," or "Let Light come to be," or "Let the Light come into existence,"... which Light is my Lord... and which Light was PRODUCED, ORIGINATED, CREATED, POSSESSED... by my Father.
Well, now you have said that only The Father is the "Maker and Former" of all things and that The Father alone stretches out the Heavens and spreads out the earth, and that The Father did so ALONE in "the beginning".
The following Scriptures are talking about THE SON, and they say that THE SON "laid the foundation of the earth", and made the Heavens:
Hebrews 1:10: And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
Psalm 102:25: In the beginning You, O Yahweh, did lay the foundation of the earth; and the Heavens are the works of Your hands.
The following Scriptures are talking about YAHWEH, and they say that YAHWEH "laid the foundation of the earth", and made the Heavens:
Zechariah 12:1: The burden of the Word of Yahweh for Israel, says Yahweh, who stretches forth the Heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
Isaiah 51:13: And you forget Yahweh your Maker, who has stretched out the Heavens and laid the foundations of the earth. And you dread continually, every day, because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy. And where is the fury of the oppressor?
Isaiah 44:24: So says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh who makes all things; who stretches out the Heavens alone; who spreads out the earth; who was with Me?
AGuest, the Heavens are the works of WHOSE HANDS? Yahweh's hands OR The Son's hands? Or is The Son Yahweh? I await your answer.
Isaiah 45:12: I [Yahweh] have made the earth, and created man on it; I with My hands have stretched out the Heavens; and all their host have I commanded.
Hebrews 1:10: And: "You [The Son], LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
AGuest said:
Genesis 1:1; John 1:9; 8:12; Proverbs 8:22
Job 9:8: who alone stretches out the Heavens, and walks on the waves of the sea;
For understanding of the first part of this, see above.
First of all, how do you know Proverbs 8:22 is talking about The Son? How do you know it is not just a symbolism for Wisdom? After all, it does call Wisdom "she" and "her" in Proverbs Chapter 9.
If it is talking about Jesus, then notice this Verse:
Proverbs 8:27: When He prepared the Heaven, I was present with Him; and when He prepared His throne upon the winds
If that is talking about The Son, then The Son said He was WITH The Father when The Father created Heaven and Earth.
Now, that directly contradicts Isaiah 44:24, in which Yahweh said no one was WITH Him when He created Heaven & Earth, UNLESS The Son AND The Father are Yahweh.
Also, if Jesus is the "Wisdom" in Proverbs Chapters 8 and 9, and Jesus has not always existed, does that mean God The Father, before Jesus was created, did not have wisdom?
AGuest said:
For understanding of the second part, the word of my Lord is that prior to his existence in the flesh, and certainly during Job's day, NO ONE other than JAH... could do such a thing. When my Lord arrived in the flesh, however, BY MEANS OF HOLY SPIRIT, the spirit of JAH, which came down upon him in the form of a dove... he, too, could walk on water - his flesh could "transcend" so that he it was not limited by the "laws" of the physical realm.
Who or what do you believe The Holy Spirit is?
The Scriptures are very clear that The Son is the Almighty God, regardless of whether or not walking on water could only be done by God.
Jesus walked on water by His OWN authority and power. Jesus had His OWN authority and power over the forces of nature, which is shown when Jesus rebukes the wind.
This is shown by the fact that Peter asked JESUS to give him the ability to walk out to Jesus. Peter did not ask The Father to give him this ability, and also Jesus was the One who gave Peter the ability to come out on the water, not The Father.
Another thing that clearly shows that Jesus had His OWN authority and power to walk on water, is the reactions of the people on the boats:
Matthew 8:27: So the men marveled, saying, "What kind of Man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
Matthew 14:33: Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."
AGuest said:
As was Peter's, as just after receiving holy spirit, the apostles and disciples could "do works greater than these."
Greater, but not better. In the same way, The Father is greater than Jesus, but not better. Look up the Greek words for "greater" and for "better".
AGuest said:
Quoting UnDisfellowshipped: Nehemiah 9:6: You, even You, are Yahweh alone. You have made the Heavens, Heaven of the Heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things on it, the seas, and all in them, and You preserve them all. And the host of the Heavens worships You.
The Scriptures say that Yahweh created all things ALONE, BY HIMSELF, NO ONE WAS WITH HIM. (End of Quote)
Not this one! You have completely misinterpreted that scripture, for it does not say that my Father created all things... alone.
Well, Isaiah 44:24 does say Yahweh created Heaven and Earth ALONE, BY HIMSELF, NO ONE WAS WITH HIM; which I also posted.
Nehemiah 9:6 says that Yahweh is the One who created all things.
AGuest said:
The very fact that He said, "Let US... make man in OUR image," belies that. What the scripture SAYS is that JAH... is one: "You are JAHVEH alone." A good reading comprehension course should help you with this.
JAH is One, and yet, JAH is an "Us". Can you comprehend that?
AGuest said:
In addition, what you are failing to see is HOW He made "things": not WITH my Lord, in the sense that they stood side-by-side and created... but THROUGH my Lord and BY MEANS of my Lord. How is that? My Lord... was the CONDUIT... and the SOURCE... by which my Father made all things after him. He was... the FIRST thing created... OUT OF LOVE... in the womb of the "Woman"... the spirit realm... and thus, the FIRST thing that came OUT of it... or was BORN. The firstBORN... of all creation. And using HIM... my Father created everything else... that "came into existence."
The problem with all that is that no where in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was ever created, and no where does it say "everything else" was created by Jesus. That is a false and deceptive claim that the Watchtower uses. In fact, the Watchtower even inserts words into the New Testament that were never in the original:
Colossians 1:16-18 (New World Translation): because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;
They added the word "other" 4 times, even though it is no where in the original Greek Text, in order to deceive people into believing that Jesus was created first, and then Jesus created "all other things".
Also, you claim that since Jesus is called "Firstborn" that this means He was created first. That is also a false claim that the Watchtower uses.
But just look at Colossians 1:18:
Colossians 1:18: And He is the Head of the body, the Church, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence,
Jesus is called The Firstborn from the dead. What does that mean? Does that mean Jesus is the "First created from the dead"? Definitely not. That makes no sense.
Or, does it mean Jesus was the first person ever raised from the dead? No. Was Jesus the first person raised from the dead in an Immortal Body? Yes.
Why then, is He called "Firstborn from the dead", because Jesus has Preeminence over all others who are raised from the dead.
Jeremiah 31:9: They shall come with weeping, and with prayers I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way; they shall not stumble in it, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.
Notice, Ephraim was not truly the first son born in that family, but he was called the firstborn, because he was to have all of the preeminence and all of the rights of the first born son.
Therefore, the word "Firstborn" can mean having Preeminence over something. And that is why Colossians 1:15-18 says Jesus has Preeminence in all things.
Also, notice how the English Majority Text Version and the International Standard Version read at Colossians 1:15:
English Majority Text Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation,
International Standard Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation.
There is also a different Greek word that could have been used if Paul had been saying that Jesus was the First-Created One, instead of the Firstborn One.
AGuest said:
John 1:3: All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing came to be which has come to be.
Please see above. All things came to be… THROUGH him… and WITHOUT him… nothing came to be which has come to be... both of which statements are true. Again, reading comprehension would be a great help, dear one, for it is those like the leaders of the WTBTS who COUNT on us not being able to COMPREHEND what is meant by what is written... and thus make up their own interpretations so as to mislead, if possible, "even the chosen ones."
You mean "reading comprehension", such as reading the ENGLISH word "Ark" in John 1:1 instead of the GREEK word "Arche", which have two entirely DIFFERENT meanings, much like the words "whole" and "hole"? I can do without that kind of "reading comprehension".
The Father made all things WITH and THROUGH the Son, which proves that The Son is Yahweh, or Yahweh lied in Isaiah 44:24.
AGuest said:
Matthew 24:24
Ephesians 3:9: and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the mystery, which had been hidden from the ages in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Notice is says that GOD… who created ALL things… THROUGH… Christ.
Colossians 1:16-17: because by Him all things were created, those in the Heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Your “by” is false… for the word rendered here as “by” is mistransliterated (not mis-translated, but mis-transliterated). It does not say that "all things were created by him," but that "by him, all things were created." There is a DIFFERENCE, as the true meaning is “by means of”. Otherwise, the translation is correct: all things have been created THROUGH him… and FOR him… and in HIM… all things are HELD TOGETHER. The latter of this statement is borne out in my Lord’s words at John 15:6, whereby he is recorded to have said: “For APART from me… you can do nothing at all.”
Really, I don't want to argue over this point. I have already shown that dozens of Bible Translations say "by" in that Verse. It could also be properly translated as "through" or "in" or "by means of", so I'm not going to argue about that.
Hebrews 1:10 already shows that Heaven and Earth was created BY Jesus in the beginning [which refers to Genesis 1:1].
The important thing is Colossians 1:17 says that Jesus existed BEFORE every single thing that has ever been created. Period. So if Jesus was created, Jesus existed BEFORE He was created, which makes no sense.
AGuest said:
Hebrews 1:8-10: But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions." And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
First, I am compelled by my Lord to ask you just who is the HE who supposedly “says” to the Son…
The Father, as I said before.
AGuest said:
second, I am compelled by my Lord to point out to you that the words “He says” are not apart of the original writing, but added to make the sentence make sense (but, oh no! everything is just as it was originally written, yes, so that NOTHING has ever been added… or taken away… for any reason…), which MUST be done in many places of that which is “written” for many reasons, correct grammar, word usage and sentence structure, being among them…
I agree, but you know what, the King James Version tells us which words have been added, by putting them in italics.
AGuest said:
And third, I am compelled to point out you that the SAME Greek word used for “God”… is the one used for “god”… so that neither you nor any other “scribe” has any idea which is truly meant, and so it is only by means of the writer himself, by means of those he revealed his meaning to… OR by means of THE ONE ABOUT WHOM IT IS WRITTEN… that you can truly know just what was meant and/or intended
Context usually reveals whether it is talking about The God or a "god". Just like context reveals whether it is talking about "religious worship" (which only God deserves) or "obeisance" or "honor".
AGuest said:
And fourth, by way of example, my Lord directs me to give you the phrase “therefore, God, Your God,” in which the word is used in two (2) contexts, name and description, are both capitalized, but in using the title it should NOT be, so that IN TRUTH, if properly rendered, it should read “therefore, God (name), your god (description),” … which lends to the truth that the phrase “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,” would actually be correctly rendered as “Your throne, O god,” IF the “He” that “says” in the first place is God… speaking to and about Christ. For if not, then the first example would mean that my Father is calling His Son… HIS God. And that cannot be, for although my Father subjected all things to the Son, it is with the exception of Himself.
No, it would simply mean that The Father is saying that The Son is equally God. The Father did not say "Your throne, O My God", The Father simply said "Your throne, O God".
noko

UDF,
You still havn't answered my question in regards with Jesus Christ having a God above him. I think you think you did but really you didn't. Plus Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow isn't he? Isn't that what scriptures says? Isn't that what you said?.. Christ made clear that he has a Father in heaven not that he was that Father in heaven. I believe Jesus, he said he was the Son Of God, not the Father. I believe the Father when he said that Jesus was his Son. You don't.
What is a lie?... A contradiction... an apparent false statement about the truth... Isn't saying the Son is the Father just that?
I asked a question some ways back about who created a computer. . . Well man did, through the free gift what Jehovah gave Adam, the ability to think and choose. This is a godlike quality that allows us to create.
Who created the lie?. . . Not Jehovah but Satan, Satan is the Father of the Lie. Jehovah is the God of the Living and Truth and not of the dead. Satan created death as we know it. So hold on a minute, Jehovah did not create death? Well did he create the computer that you reading this on or did man? Satan is the Father and God of death as well as the lie. To say there is only one God also pins all blame onto Jehovah doesn't it? So watch out what you say, I believe you really don't realize what you are saying. Do realize that Satan does have a God over him as well, a loving God who's name in English is Jehovah who is the Almighty. Now there is only one God that has no God and does indeed stand alone on this. . . and that would be Jehovah.
Jesus said he is the gatekeeper, you can read it in Chapter 10 of John, are you ashamed there he uses that term as well? Aguest only used an expression which was related to a womb of a women which is used in the Bible, something that Jehovah created and fits the truth reveiled in this thread dealing with the Ark, The Womb (Heaven), The Son Of God and the Father reveiled to her by the Holy Spirit. You are actually debating with the Holy Spirit and not myself or Aguest in this matter.
So a few times Jesus quoted 3 whole passages of scripture and inferred some as well, did not Jesus fit his teachings to whom was listening to him so that the simple could even understand things much better then the most learnt? Plus I never said a one scripture limit is what Jesus imposed did I? Why not use Jesus example? I hoping you would have a better arguement and say something like the example of Mathew, Luke or Paul is what you follow.
Beautiful Sister Aguest, I pray you continue to be with Holy Spirit and blessed from our Father Jehovah through his Son JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. I hope I did not make any more significant errors so that you have to correct me again in this thread. I too feel this thread has run its course and those with ears and eyes will search, seek, knock for true wisdom not in men or women or from us or from anyone but from true wisdom, life's water, the Spirit of Truth which is JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. May Jehovah be with you. May all get to know the Father and Son of Jehovah, Amen.
AGuest

Peace to you, dear UnDf'd...
How do you know that the Scriptures are "NOT untampered with"?
Well, one reason is because they say that they are... and my Lord issued a judgment against those who did. If they were not, the "scriptures" would not say they were... and if they COULD not be, my Lord would have no reason to issue a warning - Jeremiah 8:8; Revelation 22:18, 19
The second... and to me, the foremost... reason, is what my Lord himself has told me: "Everything I tell you is written; however, not everything that is written is what I will tell you." Now, I COULD just rely on what is written, that the "false stylus" of the "secretaries" has worked "in sheer falsehood." In truth, that would suffice. But there is something even better: I can EXERCISE faith in... and LISTEN... to the voice of my Lord as he has spoken it to me. Tell me, which ARE we to do?
Do you have the original Greek or Hebrew manuscripts?
I am SO glad you asked that question! No, I do not... but PRAISE JAH... there is One who does have access to them... to ALL things... should he need such access... for even if they were burned or buried, nothing is hidden from HIM. But... since HE is the Truth... and the things written in the scriptures and other writings are about HIM... I think it prudent to go... with HIM. Don't you?
Do you read Biblical Greek or Hebrew?
Now, see, you shouldn't have asked that one, because my answer would have to be... to some degree... yes. As I have been taught it by my Lord. I also have a very close friend who reads both, as well as Latin. But, in TRUTH... my Lord primarily uses Aramaic... a form of Chaldean and Hebrew... but at times, his "tongue" has been quite an ancient form of Hebrew, such as spoken by Abraham, and perhaps even Noah. Moses' "tongue"... was more advanced/modern... and sprinkled with Egyptian dialogue.
Have you done research to find out how the early, early Church Fathers quoted the Scriptures (in order to find out what the Scriptures actually said in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Centuries)?
Not lately. I used to. Until I found out that my Lord... is more... shall we say... reliable? MUCH more... for HIS palate... utters truth itself.
I agree that words were added so that English sentences would make sense, but those added words are clearly pointed out in the King James Version in italics.
Hmmm... I find it... amusing... that my Lord asks that if such "version" was/is so reliable... why have so many found a need to REVISE it and make even more "versions"?
I also agree that there are a few copyist errors, which most of the modern Translations have corrected.
Sigh! The modern translations, dear one, including the original King James... are mostly taken from the Greek and then, for some, the Latin translations. With the exception of some of Paul's (?) letters, the majority was written... in Hebrew and Aramaic. Thus, many... no, my Lord says MANY... mistransLITERATIONS occurred... as well as many (no, again he says MANY) intentional changes to support personal beliefs. I will share with you a vision my Lord gave me, not so many weeks ago:
I was taken in the spirit to a large room, upstairs. The time seemed about 1st or 2nd century. I personally could not tell which and during those days, calendars were kept differently - being as precise as we are today was not quite in vogue. But for some reason, I "understand" that it was early 2nd century.
Anyway, there was a large table around which sat 12 men: 5 on each long side, one at each end. In the middle of the table were many scrolls. Before each man were some scrolls and some ink and writing instruments (like thin bones or something). In a far corner, sat another man, whose job it was to watch these men, you know, to keep them from falling asleep or going slow, or something. What were the men doing? Copying... the Law, the letters, the gospels, etc. Evidently, there had been one copy, and these men had been hired... by a VERY wealthy man... to make additional copies.
As I watched, I noticed the following:
1. Two of the men had fallen asleep, as had the "overseer" (it was long and tedious work);
2. One man was not a "educated" as he'd presented himself, and so when he saw certain letters that looked similar to others, he almost always chose the wrong one.
3. Three of the men were disgusted: they were not truly "religious", but the job paid well. They thought a lot of what they were writing was mythlogical and so it didn't really matter what they wrote, so long as it did not deviate too much from what the originals they were using said.
4. One man was making more than one copy at a time: he was secretly preparing a copy for himself as these copies were VERY expensive... sold at VERY high prices... and most could not afford one. He certainly couldn't, and so each night when he left, he sneaked out pieces of his copy in his garments.
5. The others were pretty conscientious, and attempted to make copies "just so".
At some point, two other men arrived: it was there job to check the copies for accuracy. However, two men checking the work of 15 men... well, it was too much, so that much of what was copied (over 70%) was either skimmed... or ignored.
Why did my Lord show me this? I asked him: it was so that I would UNDERSTAND how it truly was... from the beginning of the copying. And as time went on, and people began to believe different things, the copying became different: slightly at times, more pronounced at other times. Thus, they cannot be TRUSTED.
Why do you believe God does not have the power to preserve an accurate copy of His Inspired Scriptures? He has the power to part the Red Sea, but not to preserve His Written Word?
God has the power... He just does not have the NEED. Prior to His Son, He had the Law written... on stone tablets... and in Books... by Moses and the Prophets. Because... that is the means by which He SPOKE to us. NOW... He speaks to us... by means of His SON... the Holy Spirit... which One, a the FINE Shepherd... leads us... "into ALL truth."
Also, it does not make much sense to claim that the Old Testament was Inspired, but the New Testament was not.
Not really, if you understand the TRUTH of it:
1. The Old Testament was only WRITTEN... because the people could not bear to HEAR it. God WAS going to come down and give it directly to them, at Sinai. But... His "arrival" was more than they could bear... so... they asked Moses... to go up and GET IT FOR THEM! I won't tell you what I think about that...
God WANTED to speak to the people directly and make His Covenant with them... directly. It was the people... who did not want that... who WANTED... a "mediator": Moses.
2. Things CHANGED... with the institution of the NEW Covenant: true, there is still a mediator... but that is because WE... lack the FAITH... cleanliness... to approach God on our own. So... we have to approach... THROUGH THE SON. However, one MAJOR feature of the NEW Covenant... distinguishing it from the OLD Covenant... is that it is NOT written on stone tablets... or on paper in delible ink! Rather... it is written... ON HEARTS... on tablets... of FLESH.
Basically, that would mean God did not want to Inspire an accurate Gospel about what His Son Jesus did on Earth, which is the most important event in the history of the Universe, but God did want to Inspire the Old Testament, which contained over 300 prophesies about the coming of Jesus?
Sort of. The first, the OT, was written by the Moses, the Prophets and others, including David... as a TUTOR... leading Israel to Christ. Once Messiah CAME, however, Israel should no longer have NEEDED a written law; instead, all they NEEDED to do... was listen to THAT ONE. But... that would require... FAITH. It was due to the LACK of faith... that some of the Apostles, Paul, Mark and James put things down in writing: some just didn't GET it... or couldn't exercise faith in it... UNLESS THEY SAW IT IN WRITING. We were told, however, that faith has to do with that which is NOT "beheld"... or seen... and thus, we are to keep our eyes on the things UNSEEN. My Lord... now being a spirit... is INVISIBLE. But his VOICE... is not obscured. That's why he said, "MY sheep... know my voice."
I give you Paul - he SAW nothing; it was what he HEARD... and who he heard it FROM... that changed him. I find it funny that the men with him heard it, too... and yet, there is no record of what occurred with THEM. I also find it worthy to note that in the case of those who DO hear... from Noah to the Apostle John... there was no one present to CORROBORATE what they heard... and yet, many believe that they did.
I tell you what I hear... and who I hear it from (for it is not of my own origination and I readily confess that)... and yet, you do not "receive it". What am I to do for YOU?
Well, now you have said that only The Father is the "Maker and Former" of all things and that The Father alone stretches out the Heavens and spreads out the earth, and that The Father did so ALONE in "the beginning".
Yes, that is what my Lord has told me...
The following Scriptures are talking about THE SON, and they say that THE SON "laid the foundation of the earth", and made the Heavens: Hebrews 1:10: And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
(Smile!) Okay, this is exactly what is meant by not being able to completely trust what is written. Let me explain what I know... from my Lord:
If you will take a look at Hebrews 1:7, you will notice that it says, "with reference to the angels HE says," yes? May I ask you... who is the "he" that is being spoken of? We would ASSUME that it's talking about God, wouldn't we? That, in truth, it should be written as: "with reference to the angels God says..." yes? Well, that's incorrect. The "he"... is the PSALMIST who wrote the original passage. How do we know? Because they are ALL quotes from the Psalms:
"And he makes his angels spirits and his public servants a flame of fire." - Psalm Psalm 104:4
"God is your throne forever and ever and the scepter of your kingship is the scepter of righteousness. You loved righteousness and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your god, anointed YOU with the oil of exultation (which, BTW, is holy spirit) more than your partners" - Psalm 45:6, 7
And... for the paragraphs says, "And"... (and please note that the following is another example of "tampering", for it is a MISQUOTE - stated as it is to support someone's personal belief that it was my Lord who did these thing - the original words did NOT include the words "O, Lord"...)
"You, at beginning (or rather, "in the ark/arch") [O Lord], laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are works of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same and your years never run out." - Psalm 102:26
I would suggest you actually read the Psalms to see what they SAID... verses what they have been quoted to say. Oh, and I must tell you that, although written by men, the Psalms, with the exception of a few... are the words of my Lord... HIM speaking... and such men writing down what HE said... while "in spirit". Thus, this last quote, would be MY LORD... speaking of... MY FATHER... and validating just who it was that created what. I urge you... read the Psalm itself.
Back to the point then, in this case, Hebrews 1:10... it was the Psalmist who said these things and was being quoted. Thus, the first one applies to JAH: the Psalmist was saying that JAH "makes is angels spirits." The second one applies to my Lord: the Psalmist was saying that God was HIS (my Lord's) throne forever," that is was MY LORD who loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, so that GOD... anointed HIM... more than his (my Lord's) partners."
And the third quote, which you use here to support your position (which, unfortunately, is false), is a quote of what the Psalmist said, when speaking the words OF MY LORD... while "in spirit" or under inspiration... which words of my Lord... were ABOUT... his Father and my Father, his God and my God, JAH.
Again, I urge you to NOT put your trust in earthling man... and NOT lean upon your own understanding... but go to the TRUTH... for he will lead you... into ALL truth!
Psalm 102:25: In the beginning You, O Yahweh, did lay the foundation of the earth; and the Heavens are the works of Your hands.
The following Scriptures are talking about YAHWEH, and they say that YAHWEH "laid the foundation of the earth", and made the Heavens:
Yes, indeed, they do! As do the other scriptures you quoted.
AGuest, the Heavens are the works of WHOSE HANDS? Yahweh's hands OR The Son's hands? Or is The Son Yahweh? I await your answer.
They are the works... of the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One whose name is JAH... of Armies (Veh)... and whose Son and Christ is my Lord, the One "who comes in the name of JAH"... JAH-Eshua Mischa-JAH.
Hebrews 1:10: And: "You [The Son], LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
Read the original Psalm from which this is quoted, dear one.
First of all, how do you know Proverbs 8:22 is talking about The Son?
The Son himself told me... when I asked how I could explain to those who asked me just how it is that he speaks. I had never seen these verses before that... and it was him that led me to them and explained them to me.
How do you know it is not just a symbolism for Wisdom?
Besides him telling me, he had me read the entire chapter. I would urge you to do the same. I would also urge you to GO TO HIM... and ASK... if you are indeed wishing, thirsting... and wanting to hear.
After all, it does call Wisdom "she" and "her" in Proverbs Chapter 9.
It does do that, doesn't it? I would direct you, then, as my Lord directed me: to Chapter 1:20-33, and Matthew 17:5.
If it is talking about Jesus, then notice this Verse:
Proverbs 8:27: When He prepared the Heaven, I was present with Him; and when He prepared His throne upon the winds
Wonderful! I am glad you bring this one up, too! Did you notice what it says in verse 30? You might see (in your particular version, and certainly in the NWT) that is says, "then I came to be beside him as a "master worker". Yes? Well, that, too, is false, a "tampering." For the Hebrew word here, "amohn", is NOT "worker"... but "fosterling" in the manner of one being raised (reared) by... or TAUGHT by. Since I did not know of myself which was true, I had to listen to my Lord. He said that he was a "faithful LEARNER" of my Father... and directed me to: John 5:19-21 and 8:28.
Thus, the Father TAUGHT the Son all things, and he (the Son), in turn, by means of holy spirit... teaches US... all things.
John 13:13 John 14:6, 16, 17, 26 John 15:26 1 John 2:2 Acts 9:4, 5, 10-16
If that is talking about The Son, then The Son said He was WITH The Father when The Father created Heaven and Earth. Now, that directly contradicts Isaiah 44:24, in which Yahweh said no one was WITH Him when He created Heaven & Earth, UNLESS The Son AND The Father are Yahweh.
My Lord being WITH my Father, dear one, at the time of the heavens and earth being spread out, does NOT mean my Lord MADE them. When my Father says that He MADE them... by Himself... that is the truth. My Lord WAS there... watching... learning. Why? Because, as the HEIR... he would one day RECEIVE such power and ability. Since it was not his automatically, but GIVEN to him... he had to be shown what and how. And he learned... faithfully and obediently.
Also, if Jesus is the "Wisdom" in Proverbs Chapters 8 and 9, and Jesus has not always existed, does that mean God The Father, before Jesus was created, did not have wisdom?
No, dear one. It means that prior to my Lord being "produced" as God's "Way"... wisdom existed only IN God. It was not an "it", per se, until it was brought OUT of God, in the form of my Lord. HE... "manifests" God... and God's qualities... to earthling man. There is no other way.
Who or what do you believe The Holy Spirit is?
It is the helper, the Paraclete... the SPIRIT... that is my Lord... glorified. Prior to his death, all that he did and taught was limited, even temporary. After his death and resurrection as the GLORIFIED Son of God (which glory he had before he came and was granted again shortly before he died)... he was/is able to do MUCH more. Those resurrected by him BEFORE... died again. Those healed... obviously became sick again, or at least aged... for they died... again. Those fed... became hungry again. Those who drank... became thirsty... again. But as the LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT... those who are blind have their eyes "really" opened; those who are lame, can truly "walk". Those who were hungry, but now feed on him... never hunger again. And those who thirst... but now drink from him... never thirst again.
The Scriptures are very clear that The Son is the Almighty God, regardless of whether or not walking on water could only be done by God.
I disagree... and do not see where you have proven such "clarity" at all.
Jesus walked on water by His OWN authority and power. Jesus had His OWN authority and power over the forces of nature, which is shown when Jesus rebukes the wind.
Hmmm... by his words recorded at John 5:19 and 30... it would seem that my Lord... disagrees with you, too.
This is shown by the fact that Peter asked JESUS to give him the ability to walk out to Jesus. Peter did not ask The Father to give him this ability, and also Jesus was the One who gave Peter the ability to come out on the water, not The Father.
That does not prove your position, however, but only that which my Lord himself said: that HE... could not do a single thing of HIS own initiative. So, he RECEIVED the power and ability that he granted to Peter, from someone higher than himself.
Another thing that clearly shows that Jesus had His OWN authority and power to walk on water, is the reactions of the people on the boats:
Matthew 8:27: So the men marveled, saying, "What kind of Man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?"
Matthew 14:33: Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."
No, this only shows just what it says: that my Lord is the SON of God... and used the power and abilities GRANTED him... BY God.
Greater, but not better. In the same way, The Father is greater than Jesus, but not better. Look up the Greek words for "greater" and for "better".
I'm not even sure we're having that particular discussion, but for the sake of thus discussion, I am directed to refer you to Mark 10:17, 18.
Well, Isaiah 44:24 does say Yahweh created Heaven and Earth ALONE, BY HIMSELF, NO ONE WAS WITH HIM; which I also posted.
Again, you are trusting in what the scribes have written. I must ask you, if what is written says one thing in one place... and another thing in another... why is it that we continually try to have them fit OUR beliefs (when, in truth, they can very well support either: God as Three equals in One... or the God being separate and distinct from the Son... etc., etc., )... rather than simply ASKING GOD... by means of ASKING HIS SON... what the TRUTH is? Why? Because it is EASIER to trust what we see with our eyes... than what we hear through the Spirit. And that is exactly what we've been told NOT to do. Ah, well...
JAH is One, and yet, JAH is an "Us". Can you comprehend that?
If it were true, indeed I could. However, since it is FALSE... I must reject it. Rather, I must accept what my Lord has told me... that JAH is one... and that the "us" was he AND the Father, two separate and distinct individuals. Like a man and woman who make a child.
The problem with all that is that no where in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus was ever created
Proverbs 8:22, Revelation 3:14 (for scriptures), and Colossians 1:15 (for additional support).
and no where does it say "everything else" was created by Jesus. That is a false and deceptive claim that the Watchtower uses. In fact, the Watchtower even inserts words into the New Testament that were never in the original: Colossians 1:16-18 (New World Translation): because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;
I agree they added words... but somewhere above, YOU said that it was okay to do so. Yes?
They added the word "other" 4 times, even though it is no where in the original Greek Text, in order to deceive people into believing that Jesus was created first, and then Jesus created "all other things".
Yes, that was their motive.
Also, you claim that since Jesus is called "Firstborn" that this means He was created first.
I think it SAYS... "firstborn OF CREATION..."
That is also a false claim that the Watchtower uses. But just look at Colossians 1:18: Colossians 1:18: And He is the Head of the body, the Church, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have the preeminence,
I have looked...
Jesus is called The Firstborn from the dead. What does that mean? Does that mean Jesus is the "First created from the dead"? Definitely not. That makes no sense. Or, does it mean Jesus was the first person ever raised from the dead? No. Was Jesus the first person raised from the dead in an Immortal Body? Yes.
My Lord was not created from the dead, nor was he the first ever raised from the dead. He was the first... to come to LIFE... that is, the REAL life... from which he would never die again. If my Lord were God... and God cannot die... what need would He (God) have... to put on an immortal body? The one He had and has... is immortal, dear one.
Why then, is He called "Firstborn from the dead", because Jesus has Preeminence over all others who are raised from the dead.
He is called "firstborn"... because he was the FIRST... to be BORN... "again"... FROM womb of the Woman (for a man cannot enter back into the womb of his fleshly mother so as to born again, can he?)... THE SPIRIT REALM... in the manner NOT of the flesh... but OF THE SPIRIT... according to A PROMISE. As that Firstborn son, he is indeed entitled to a "double" share; that is why he is anointed with the oil of exultation... MORE than his partners... us.
Revelation 12:1, 2, 5, Isaiah 54:1; Galatians 4:24-21
Ephraim was not truly the first son born in that family, but he was called the firstborn, because he was to have all of the preeminence and all of the rights of the first born son. Therefore, the word "Firstborn" can mean having Preeminence over something. And that is why Colossians 1:15-18 says Jesus has Preeminence in all things.
True, it can mean that. I do not dispute that it does.
Also, notice how the English Majority Text Version and the International Standard Version read at Colossians 1:15: English Majority Text Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation, International Standard Version: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn OVER all creation. There is also a different Greek word that could have been used if Paul had been saying that Jesus was the First-Created One, instead of the Firstborn One.
You assume that he didn't... and that what he did use was translated absolutely correctly. I do not. Therefore, I must ask my Lord.
You mean "reading comprehension", such as reading the ENGLISH word "Ark" in John 1:1 instead of the GREEK word "Arche", which have two entirely DIFFERENT meanings, much like the words "whole" and "hole"? I can do without that kind of "reading comprehension".
The English word "ark"... is a mistransliteration of the Greek word, "arche"... which is pronounced the same. There are several meanings for the word, "box/container," "beginning," and "chief", to name a few. The Ark of the Covenant was a BOX... meant to depict the womb of the Woman... in which my Lord was first PRODUCED... as the "Son of [God's] love" FOR the Woman... the spirit realm... and then HE became the "cover" to that "box"... so that all things coming into existence... CAME THROUGH HIM. It was IN the "box"; the only way OUT... and into existence... was THROUGH him, the cover or propitiatory.
The Father made all things WITH and THROUGH the Son, which proves that The Son is Yahweh, or Yahweh lied in Isaiah 44:24.
That is your understanding. Mine is slightly different.
Really, I don't want to argue over this point. I have already shown that dozens of Bible Translations say "by" in that Verse. It could also be properly translated as "through" or "in" or "by means of", so I'm not going to argue about that.
How, then, do YOU know which... is correct... if any of them are?
Dear one, if my Lord IS "the beginning"... or PART of "the beginning"... by means of being part OF the "arche"... how can he create something IN "the beginning"? It was my Father who did so.
Revelation 3:14
The important thing is Colossians 1:17 says that Jesus existed BEFORE every single thing that has ever been created. Period. So if Jesus was created, Jesus existed BEFORE He was created, which makes no sense.
Colossians 1:17 makes no mention of what was created, when and by whom. It speaks... of what EXISTS.
I asked you:
just who is the HE who supposedly “says” to the Son…
And you replied, "The Father, as I said before." I refer you to the TRUTH of who the "he" is, above, and say to you, that even if it were the Father speaking to and/or OF the Son... by means of such dialogue, the two are separate.
the King James Version tells us which words have been added, by putting them in italics.
And your point? The NWT does it with brackets. And other versions do it whatever way they do. Does that mean such versions are completely accurate and acceptable? How can you say is, over another?
Context usually reveals whether it is talking about The God or a "god". Just like context reveals whether it is talking about "religious worship" (which only God deserves) or "obeisance" or "honor".
"Usually", yes. So, then, how does one know when it is accurate? Oh, that's right... one must trust... in earthling's man "stylus", yes?
AGuest said: And fourth, by way of example, my Lord directs me to give you the phrase “therefore, God, Your God,” in which the word is used in two (2) contexts, name and description, are both capitalized, but in using the title it should NOT be, so that IN TRUTH, if properly rendered, it should read “therefore, God (name), your god (description),” … which lends to the truth that the phrase “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,” would actually be correctly rendered as “Your throne, O god,” IF the “He” that “says” in the first place is God… speaking to and about Christ. For if not, then the first example would mean that my Father is calling His Son… HIS God. And that cannot be, for although my Father subjected all things to the Son, it is with the exception of Himself.
And you replied:
No, it would simply mean that The Father is saying that The Son is equally God. The Father did not say "Your throne, O My God", The Father simply said "Your throne, O God".
Again, I refer you to the Psalms, and to who was truly "speaking."
My peace remains...
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
UnDisfellowshipped

Noko said:
You still havn't answered my question in regards with Jesus Christ having a God above him. I think you think you did but really you didn't. Plus Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow isn't he? Isn't that what scriptures says? Isn't that what you said?.. Christ made clear that he has a Father in heaven not that he was that Father in heaven. I believe Jesus, he said he was the Son Of God, not the Father. I believe the Father when he said that Jesus was his Son. You don't.
What is a lie?... A contradiction... an apparent false statement about the truth... Isn't saying the Son is the Father just that?
Noko, yes, you are correct. I understand what is wrong now. I have probably not explained my beliefs as clearly as I should have.
You are absolutely correct -- The Son IS NOT The Father. The Father IS NOT The Son. They are two distinct and separate Persons. Each has their own Mind and their own Personality.
My belief is that The Father and The Son both are Eternal, Almighty, Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent.
The Father deserves our worship and The Son equally deserves our worship.
The Son took on a Human Nature, and His Human Nature died for us. The Father did not do that. The Father sent The Son to do that. The Son gave His Human Life as a Sacrifice to The Father through The Holy Spirit.
You are correct that anyone who teaches that The Father and The Son are the same Person is teaching a lie. Mainly, the only ones I know that teach that are the Oneness Pentecostals.
Noko said:
I asked a question some ways back about who created a computer. . . Well man did, through the free gift what Jehovah gave Adam, the ability to think and choose. This is a godlike quality that allows us to create.
Did man create the computer out of nothing, or did he create it using things that God created out of nothing?
Only the Almighty God can create things out of nothing.
Noko said:
Who created the lie?. . . Not Jehovah but Satan, Satan is the Father of the Lie. Jehovah is the God of the Living and Truth and not of the dead. Satan created death as we know it. So hold on a minute, Jehovah did not create death? Well did he create the computer that you reading this on or did man? Satan is the Father and God of death as well as the lie. To say there is only one God also pins all blame onto Jehovah doesn't it? So watch out what you say, I believe you really don't realize what you are saying. Do realize that Satan does have a God over him as well, a loving God who's name in English is Jehovah who is the Almighty. Now there is only one God that has no God and does indeed stand alone on this. . . and that would be Jehovah.
Satan is a certainly a god, he is a wicked, evil FALSE god who is going to be destroyed. Satan did originate lying and murder and sin.

Who created the freedom to choose right and wrong? Jehovah did. Jehovah could have made the angels not have the ability to choose, but then they would have been like robots.
Satan used & abused that freedom for his own wicked and evil ways, because Satan desired the worship that belongs only to the Almighty God.
There is only One True God who deserves worship. All other gods are NOT God by nature and do not deserve worship. Is Satan God by nature? No, Satan is "god of this world" because he is the current "ruler" of this world. Jehovah is the One who is actually in control of all things, but Jehovah allows Satan to temporarily rule over the world.
Noko said:
Jesus said he is the gatekeeper, you can read it in Chapter 10 of John, are you ashamed there he uses that term as well? Aguest only used an expression which was related to a womb of a women which is used in the Bible, something that Jehovah created and fits the truth reveiled in this thread dealing with the Ark, The Womb (Heaven), The Son Of God and the Father reveiled to her by the Holy Spirit. You are actually debating with the Holy Spirit and not myself or Aguest in this matter.
Jesus never called Himself the "womb" or the "hymen".
Most Christians on this Earth would find it extremely disrespectful if someone called Jesus either of those things, or if someone called Jesus the "armpit" or the "buttocks" or "the penis". You catch my drift?
There has got to be a more respectful illustration to use than calling Jesus those things.
Also, once again, you are saying that by challenging AGuest, I am challenging the Holy Spirit Himself. I don't believe that even the Apostle Paul ever said that about himself. In fact, the Apostle Paul, whom the Lord Jesus chose and appointed as His Apostle, ENCOURAGED everyone to check with the Scriptures to see if what he was preaching was in harmony with the Bible.
It is only false teachers, false christs, false prophets, false religions, cults, and apostles of Satan that do not want people to compare the Bible to their teachings.
Now, how am I supposed to know that AGuest is receiving this information from The Holy Spirit, and not some other "spirit"? Read 1st John 4:1 and Acts 17:11.
Noko said:
So a few times Jesus quoted 3 whole passages of scripture and inferred some as well, did not Jesus fit his teachings to whom was listening to him so that the simple could even understand things much better then the most learnt? Plus I never said a one scripture limit is what Jesus imposed did I? Why not use Jesus example? I hoping you would have a better arguement and say something like the example of Mathew, Luke or Paul is what you follow.
Jesus did not always say things that the simple could grasp immediately. For instance, do you think everyone understood when Jesus said you must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood?
How hard is it for the simple people to understand that Jesus, being God The Son, came to Earth, Sacrificed His Human Life in order to save sinners from being destroyed, and then was Resurrected and went to Heaven, and that in order to be saved, everyone has to put all their faith, hope, and trust in Jesus Christ? That is about as simple as you can get.
As the Holy Spirit directs and guides me, I will continue to tell people the Truth from the Holy Scriptures, the Inspired Written Word of God (Old and New Testaments), and I will provide as many Scriptures as it takes to show The Truth of whichever subject we are discussing.
You are correct, Matthew and Luke and John and Paul used several Scriptures throughout their Spirit-Inspired Books and Letters. So I am actually following the example of The Holy Spirit, who Inspired the Apostles to write those Books and Letters.
Actually, in order to prove that Jesus is Yahweh [but He is NOT The Father], I only need to provide one Scripture from the Old Testament, and one Scripture from the New Testamant:
Isaiah 44:24 and Colossians 1:16.
Noko said:
Beautiful Sister Aguest, I pray you continue to be with Holy Spirit and blessed from our Father Jehovah through his Son JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. I hope I did not make any more significant errors so that you have to correct me again in this thread. I too feel this thread has run its course and those with ears and eyes will search, seek, knock for true wisdom not in men or women or from us or from anyone but from true wisdom, life's water, the Spirit of Truth which is JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. May Jehovah be with you. May all get to know the Father and Son of Jehovah, Amen.
I agree that everyone who wants to know the Truth should pray to The Father and to Jesus Christ and ask for the Truth.
noko

UDF
Thanks for your feedback and may the Holy Spirit continue to be with you and guide you to the truth about the Father and the Son. I pray that your ears and eyes stay open for the glory of Our Father in Heaven Yahweh through our Lord Jesus Christ. Please continue in what the Holy Spirit directs you in and ignore my comments about the number of scriptures, who am I after all? The Holy Spirit is the true comforter, true friend and ally that is alive and present that can heal our blindess and deafness and can teach us all the truth. Good scripture is 1John2:26:28, better yet 1John2. Rest assured I too find the Bible very valuable. May the peace of our Lord be with you UnDisfellowshipped.
UnDisfellowshipped

Thank you for your kind, loving words Noko.
I have great love for you, and for AGuest, and for Logical.

That is why I am discussing the Bible with you. I am trying to speak the Truth of the Scriptures, however, in the process, I may learn that I am wrong on certain things, so I may be the one who needs to be corrected sometimes.
I am the one who should be saying "Who am I?". I am no one except for a sinner who deserves to be destroyed for my sins. But the Lord Jesus Christ in His infinite grace and love and mercy, decided to save me and cause me to be "Born Again", and he set me free from the Watchtower Society's control.
I am nothing without Jesus. There is not even a point in living without Jesus. Jesus is my life.
May the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace, love, peace, mercy, faith, hope, and wisdom Noko!
AGuest

Dearest UnDf'd... may you have peace... and may I respond to the following? Thank you!
Jesus never called Himself the "womb" or the "hymen".
No, dear one, he did not. However, John referred to him as the "propitiatory." A "propitiatory," dear one... is a cover. Now, I ask you... we are the be BORN... again, yes? And from where is a child born? The womb, yes? And what is the "cover" of a woman's womb... was is the "seal"? The hymen, yes? You seem to feel that reference to a woman's reproductive parts is... unseemly. But I tell you truly that throughout the scriptures such things are prominent! Why is Israel and Judah referred to as Oholah and Oholibah? Why is there so much mention of harlots and concubines, and adulterers and women and wives, and seed and fruit and bosom and womb? Because that, dear one, is a primary clue to what all this is about. Let me explain:
A man cannot enter into his mother in the flesh's womb so as to be reborn, can he? Yet, being BORN (again) is a MAJOR part of what my Lord spoke about, was it not? But what womb must a mand be reborn FROM? He cannot enter into to the womb of his mother in the flesh, can he? No. And he is not expected to, for it is from the womb of the "woman" of Revelation 12:10, the mother of my Lord, my brothers and myself... Jerusalem Above... that such "birth" is to take place! She is the one who gave birth to a "male child," my Lord. And it is the Body of the child that now awaits birth, just as it is said, "Can a nation be born in one day?" and "Cry out, you barren woman that did not give birth," with regard to the birth of her children. From where do such children come? Her womb. And what is that womb? The Ark... of the Covenant... or beginning (arche) of creation.
For where did all creation come FROM? Ecclesiastes says that that which is here NOW, came OUT of that which was before it. And what was before THIS world? The construction of the temple helps us to know: it was made after that which Moses was shown, that existed in the spirit realm. Jerusalem Above... or the spirit realm... represented by "Sarah"... is the "free" wife of my Father... the "woman" with whom He gave birth to all that is spiritual... by means of a promise. Her children... are free... as they are born in the manner of the SPIRIT... and thus are not bound by that which binds the flesh. The earth... or physical realm... represented by "Hagar"... is the "slave" wife of my Father... the woman with whom He gave birth to Adam... in the manner of the flesh.
These things are represented by TWO Covenants: one, which is a covenant of law... and speaks to that which is and those who are FLESHLY... and was instituted at Sinai with the blood of bulls... with Moses as mediator... and another, which is a covenent of LOVE... and speaks to that which is and those who are SPIRITUAL... and was instituted on Pentecost 30 CE... with the blood of CHRIST... holy spirit... who was its mediator.
That is what Paul (?) was speaking about at Galatians 4:27. The antitype of this is Abraham... who had TWO wives... one free, one slave... Sarah and Hagar... and by these two women... TWO sons: one, Ishmael, born first and in the manner of the flesh. by means of the slave wife... who later came to despise the other... ISAAC, born "last" and due to a PROMISE, by means of Abraham's free... and BARREN... wife, Sarah. Isaac, was the one Abraham was willing to offer up for sacrifice. As a result, God called Abraham his friend, blessed his descendants to be a chosen people... and sent HIS Son... by HIS free wife, Jerusalem Above... to be a sacrifice... not for Abraham's seed ONLY... but for the world.
Most Christians on this Earth would find it extremely disrespectful if someone called Jesus either of those things, or if someone called Jesus the "armpit" or the "buttocks" or "the penis". You catch my drift?
Most so-called "christians," yes. And that is simply because in their self-perceived righteousness, they think themselves "clean"... or that they are to BE "clean"... by means of abstaining from everything that has to do with sex, including speaking of the body parts involved. Unfortunately, they confuse the act of sex with the action of reproduction, thus rendering the latter unspeakable. But that is not the case with my Father, for He spoke of reproduction quite often. In HIS case, however, sex was not involved: He did not need to literally copulate with Mary to have her conceive His Son. The act... was beautiful and perfect... for it resulted not only in the creation of a child, but a child who could save the world.
While the act of conception with earthling man is not "immaculate" as it was with my Father... it is still nothing to be ashamed of. Nor is the particular body parts associated with. And we CAN get past any shame we might feel when speaking of such things if we remember one thing: "ALL things are clean... to clean people." This does not mean clean in the flesh, dear one... but clean in mind... and in HEART! Our bodies, dear one, male and female, indeed have "dishonorable" parts. But such parts are that which expel waste. Waste... is dishonorable. But the parts used to procreate are not dishonorable. Otherwise, my Father would NEVER have said to Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful and multiply." For He NEVER would have had them use dishonorable parts to do His will... nor would He have had them engage in a dishonorable act for purposes of His will.
Bottom line? Remove your mind from the gutter... and get the SENSE of what is being said.
There has got to be a more respectful illustration to use than calling Jesus those things.
If God FORMED such parts in Adam and Eve... and we inherited them from them... where is the disrespect? The disrepect comes in when the words are used... for a DISHONORABLE purpose! Tell me, please, what is UNCLEAN about a womb? About a hymen? May I suggest you look up the word "womb" in your Bible? You might be surprised how often it's used... and how. If then it is good enough for what you believe to be God's "inspired word," why is it not good enough for you? Perhaps it is because rather than hearing and getting the sense of it, you let your mind... and heart... stop... and consider the parts of the body that are dishonorable. Move on, I beg you.
You are correct, Matthew and Luke and John and Paul used several Scriptures throughout their Spirit-Inspired Books and Letters. So I am actually following the example of The Holy Spirit, who Inspired the Apostles to write those Books and Letters.
These books are not inspired, dear one. My Lord tells us which books are "scripture", as Luke records. They are the books that those seeking Messiah "searched" BEFORE his arrival in the flesh. They were a "tutor" leading TO Christ. Once he came... HE was the Word. And Luke himself testifies that he was NOT inspired, writing that he wrote his account at the behest of Theophilus, a Roman/Greek ruler, who wasn't even a "christian" (for had he been, he would not have needed Luke's investigation as to what was what). Thus, THEOPHILUS employed him... and not God or Christ. In addition, he SAYS that he got his information from others, including some who were eyewitnesses. What does that mean? That he received what he did... from HUMANS... and NOT... from God. God neither told him to write it... nor gave him what he wrote. In both cases, earthling man did. And Luke himself testifies to this. I urge you: read his introduction to both his gospel, and his account of the acts of the apostles.
I agree that everyone who wants to know the Truth should pray to The Father and to Jesus Christ and ask for the Truth.
I am compelled to ask you, dear UnDf'd... what YOU think my Lord means by his words... at:
John 8:32... John 14:6... and John 8:36.
As always, I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
siegswife

Hi Shelby! I haven't read this whole thread, but the thought that you're expounding on corresponds to Matthew 27:50, 51 "Again Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and yielded up His Spirit. And, look! the curtain of the sactuary was rent in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rock-masses were split."
I've felt for awhile that this represented the "virginity" of the temple. I'm not sure if I'm understanding your take on it, but considering the significance of the manner of His death and the fact that He became "sin" for us is what made me feel that way about the curtain of the temple.
xxxooo
Lea
AGuest

Hey, Lea! The greatest of love and peace to you, dear one! It's SO good to see you here!
To put it as briefly as possible: the spirit realm is a "free" realm - spirits are not "bound" there, are they? (They are only "bound" when locked in Tartarus! True, once hurled out, they cannot get back in... but they are not bound while in)! Thus, they are "free". It is in the physical realm that we are enslaved, yes? We, to our flesh.
God's children, born in the manner of the flesh... are like Ishmael: born of a slave woman, earth. However, God's children, born by means of a PROMISE... are free. Well, the only way a child can be FREE... is if it's mother is free. And Jerusalem ABOVE is our mother. She cannot be the earth... for the earth is a slave, as are her children.
Okay, mother(s) established... when a child is born, from WHERE is it born? The womb, yes? Adam... was taken from the dust. Our Lord, however, from where was HE taken? The Revelation says that the woman... gave birth to a male child. True, our Lord was born of Mary, a woman in the flesh... but he DIED. However, once he was "born AGAIN," in the manner of the SPIRIT... according to a PROMISE... his mother was different. She was now "the barren woman"... who had not yet given birth... who, like Sarah, had waited SO long for her child to arrive... that it almost seemed as if the promise would not be fulfilled. As it did with Sarah.
And just as Isaac came forth from Sarah's formerly barren womb, so, too, our Lord came forth from Jerusalem Above's formerly barren womb. He was her "firstborn". HE... opened her "womb"... the ARK... of the Covenant.
For US, however, it is bit different. Just as he was conceived in Mary with breaking the hymen, he was ALSO conceived in "Sarah"... Jerusalem Above... without breaking the hymen. Then, he BECAME that hymen... by means of HIS flesh, the curtain, being rent in two! Now... ALL of her (Jerusalem Above's) children could be born! The Way... was now OPENED. Does it stay open? No. He is a "hymen" for each of us: it is THROUGH him that we must pass... to enter before God, into the Ark... the sanctuary... the womb of the Woman... the spirit realm.
Hope that helps!
Again, LOVE to you!
Your servant, sister and fellow slave of Christ,
SJ
UnDisfellowshipped

AGuest,
I am definitely going to reply to all of the comments you have posted to me.
You can call Jesus whatever you want. It's a free country. I however, will not call Jesus any of those things. There are enough wonderful titles in the Holy Scriptures that are given to Jesus Christ to cover any illustration you would want to make.
Can you imagine trying to explain to a little boy or girl that Jesus is "a hymen"?
Can you imagine trying to explain that to someone who has, let's say, had sexual problems in the past?
Can you imagine trying to explain that to someone who is a normal person, who has been raised up not to talk about or dwell on sex or sexual body parts all the time?
If you go out in public and start telling people: "JESUS IS THE HYMEN" or "JESUS IS THE VAGINA" or "JESUS IS THE A**HOLE", I can guarantee that you won't get a favorable response. (I do not even feel good about writing such disrespectful things about my Lord).
The Bible warns that we should not stumble anyone by what we say or do. I believe that would mean you should be extremely careful about what you call Jesus Christ.
Think about this: God created scorpions and snakes, didn't He? God declared that they were good, didn't He?
Yet, the Scriptures call demons scorpions and serpents, so do you think it would be proper or appropriate to call Jesus a scorpion or serpents?
God created rats and said that they were good, but yet, do you think it would be appropriate or proper to call Jesus a "rat"?
God created all beasts and called them good, but do you think it would be proper or appropriate to call Jesus "a beast"?
God created darkness, and He declared that it was good, didn't He? And yet, God uses darkness to symbolize wicked and evil sins and sinful persons, so do you think it would be proper or appropriate to call Jesus "the darkness"?
God created Hellfire [Gehenna, Eternal Separation from God], but do you think it would be proper or appropriate to call Jesus "Hell" or "Hellfire"?
Also, "Hymen" is the name of a false god:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary of "Hymen":
The Greek god of marriage
So, you would have extra confusion going on, besides the fact that Jesus is being called the "hymen" body part.
Also, as far as I am concerned, there is no discussion about the New Testament being Inspired or not. I believe 100% that all of the New Testament was Inspired.
It sounded like you were saying that Christians did not need to have a Gospel of Jesus' Life written and sent to them, but only Romans/Greeks/Jews/Non-Christians needed this.
Well, who did the Apostle John write his Gospel to and who did he send it to? Why did he write his Gospel, so many years after the other 3?

John 1:1 - A "Sacred Secret" Revealed

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