What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 263 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  GodBeliever

  DJW, SB

  Yes the 144000 are in the new convenant with God under Christ. They are the new heavenly Israel. They are credited with righteousness while in this body so they can have a relationship with Christ. However, they need to prove faithful onto death just as Christ did.

  The "other sheep" the haven't been credited righteousness yet so the only way not to die in Armageddon is to run "The cities of refuge were six Levitical towns in the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah in which the perpetrators of accidental manslaughter could claim the right of asylum." However this city of refuge It's not WT, it's the heavenly Jerusalem, the organisation of Jehovah. As long as they stay there they are safe and the will become righteous and will be saved by Jesus trough his blood during the great tribulation. They need to stay there until the death of the high Priest (144000 are part of Christ body who is the high Priest) which means the last member of the 144000 makes it to heaven before the Armageddon starts.

  I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

  Revelation 7:14‭-‬15

  They will also be saved if they finish this life faithful.
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  BoogerMan

  @ Godbeliever: Based on the scriptures, surely everyone who has faith/believes in Jesus' ransom is declared righteous - not just 144,000? God isn't partial, as Peter said.

  (Romans 3:24) ...and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.

  (Romans 3:28) For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law.

  (Romans 4:3) For what does the scripture say? “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

  (Romans 5:1) Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith,...

  (Romans 5:9) ...we have now been declared righteous by his blood,...

  (Galatians 2:16) ….a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ.

  (Galatians 3:24) So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith.
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  Vanderhoven7

  GB.
  

  You are good a listing bunches of scriptures without comment.

  So here is your challenge... and a challenge to any Jehovah's Witness on this forum:
  

  Just like Boogerman above, without human reasoning, just the scriptures, none of your words or thoughts or reasonings are needed or wanted.

  List the scriptures that tell us there are Christians living today who are not born again, not indwelt by the Spirit, not declared righteous, not part of the New Covenant, not eligible to partake of the emblems of Christ death, bereft of a heavenly hope and a heavenly Mediator?

  SCRIPTURES ONLY THANK YOU!!!!
• 

  Sanchy

  >What name does the New Testament emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

  Objectively speaking, in terms of how often they appear, the answer would clearly be Jesus.
  

  Judging by the writings of those early Christians, they simply did not use the name "Jehovah" anywhere near as often as JWs do, if even at all.

  The definition of the name "Jesus" is a separate subject
• 

  GodBeliever

  Vanderhoven,
  
  I can't give you such scriptures because, there are no such scriptures.
  What I can tell is that everyone is saved and justified in in the same way trough Jesus's blood and He is the mediator for all who believe. However, salvation comes in stages and there is a ruling class that will be in heaven with Jesus which is being saved first.
  
  "Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has chosen to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32

  "just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd."John 10:15‭-‬16

  "The statement is trustworthy: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
  2 Timothy 2:11‭-‬12
  "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be."John 14:3
  
  "Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.Revelation 14:1‭, ‬3‭-‬4
  "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."
  1 Peter 2:9‭-‬10

  Not everyone will go to heaven to rule with Jesus but the exact number of 144000 who are the bride of Christ.
  
  Salvation comes in stages.
  
  First those that belongs to the heavenly Jerusalem will be sealed. One can say they are all from the house of Israel.
  
  "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God." Romans 2:28‭-‬29
  
  After the 144 000 are sealed the great tribulation will come and everyone of the great crowd that will be found faithful will be saved as well by Jesus.
  
  "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they *cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
  Revelation 7:9‭-‬10

  
  After the first vision of the sealing of the 144000 John has another vision following the first one where he sees the great crowd crying for salvation. (I like a lot this part of the vision). This group comes later in the vision and they are not numbered, neither in line to rule with Jesus ,whereas the 144000 they are purchased from earth and they are the first fruits to God and the Lamb.
  
  "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."
  Revelation 20:6
  
  There is also an royal wedding mentioned in the bible in several places.
  
  "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your companions. All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh, aloes, and cassia; From ivory palaces stringed instruments have made You joyful. Kings’ daughters are among Your noble women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. Listen, daughter, look and incline your ear: Forget your people and your father’s house; Then the King will crave your beauty. Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him. The King’s daughter is all glorious within; Her clothing is interwoven with gold. She will be brought to the King in colorful garments; The virgins, her companions who follow her, Will be brought to You.
  Psalms 45:7‭-‬11‭, ‬13‭-‬14
  
  "For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2
  "Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. Let’s rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has prepared herself.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he *said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb.’ ” And he *said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
  Revelation 19:6‭-‬9

  At this marriage between the Lamb and the Church are invited many others which are not of the bride class but are companions to the queen.
  
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi GB,

  "I can't give you such scriptures because, there are no such scriptures."
  

  Well thank you for trying. But since you can't show me scripture, you do exactly what I asked you not to do. You give me human reasoning and then quote scripture that does not support your reasoning.

  <<Not everyone will go to heaven to rule with Jesus but the exact number of 144000 who are the bride of Christ>>.
  

  Scripture please.

  You talk about the Great Crowd being support for your beliefs. So list the scriptures that tell us members of the Great Crowd are not born again, not indwelt by the Spirit, not declared righteous, not part of the New Covenant, not eligible to partake of the emblems of Christ death, bereft of a heavenly hope and a heavenly Mediator?
• 

  GodBeliever

  Vanderhoven

  
  "Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has chosen to give you the kingdom"

  Here it says little flock not great crowd.

  "The statement is trustworthy: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;"
  2 Timothy 2:11‭-‬12

  "The one who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne."Revelation 3:21

  "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;" Revelation 7:9

  Here it says about the great crowd that they are before the throne not on the throne.

  As for the great crowd they will be saved in the same way but at a later date namely great tribulation.

  Vanderhoven, I don't try to convince anyone. Just presenting my arguments for my belief based on the bible. If you think they are not valid it's your judgement and I respect it.

  Believe me I am not following current WT rhetoric of fearing God's punishment or that I will die. I purely serve God because I love Him and I love Jesus too for what he's done for the human race. I wish there will be more people that will take advantage of that opportunity. God is love.

  "We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, we also are in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. If someone says, “I love God,” and yet he hates his brother or sister, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother and sister whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God must also love his brother and sister."

  1 John 4:16‭-‬18‭, ‬20‭-‬21
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  Riley

  The book of a Revelation has a pattern where the author would hear something " old testament imagery " and the would hear something completely different. Example- Hear The mighty Lion, see the bloody lamb. It is all based on the idea that Jesus defeated his enemies by dying for them. not fighting them.

  The 144,000 is a reference to a military census from the book of Numbers.

  He heard the calling of the 144,000, he saw the great crowd that no one could number.

  The 144,000 is a symbol of the church, the redempted body of Christ.

  The new covenant is not a limited arrangement.

  More important is I could be wrong and I also don't care either. Eschatology is the playground of the cults and false religions anyway.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Riley,

  I agree.

  LOOKING AT THE NUMBER 144,000 :

  How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply Christ's mustard seed analogy to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, wouldn't you be dealing with a sizable group? How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?

  
  

  David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says:

  The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)

  IS THERE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT THE 144,000 AND THE "GREAT MULTITUDE" ARE IDENTICAL?

  John's Literary Device in Revelation: Hearing & then Seeing

  There is support for the idea that the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" are really the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that Saint John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton clearly demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing in :”Days of Vengeance:”

  For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns

  to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then

  sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"

  - then sees the object of the creatures command. The same

  pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the

  number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things

  - after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold

  a Great Multitude (v.9).

  Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:

  144,000 /CROWD

  a. From every kindred and nation. 5:9 /7:9

  b. Servants of God. 7:3 /7:15

  c. Divinely protected thru tribulation 9:4,5 /Acts 14:22 7:14

  d. followers of the Lamb 14:4 /7:17

  e. Redeemed 14:3 /7:14

  f. Pure and Spotless 14:4 /7:13,14

  g. Standing before the throne 14:1,3 / 7:9

  h. Before the Lamb 5:8 /7:9

  i. In His temple (naos) 11:1,2 /7:15; 11:19

  j. Tenting/residing with God 2Cor.6:16 / 7:15

  i. Dressed in white robes 6:11/ 7:9

  j. Wearing robes that are washed 22:14 /7:14

  h. A heavenly class 14:1; 4:1,2; / 19:1

  i. Spirit begotten 7:3 / I Jn. 5:1
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  GB,

  <<The "other sheep" haven't been credited righteousness yet so the only way not to die in Armageddon is to run ">>

  Scripture please!

  Romans 3:22 NKJV even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
  

  Have you not been credited righteousness already? I thought you were a believer. If you are, you should say only what the scriptures say....period.