What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 258 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @TruthBKnown

    Prior to Paul appointing himself as an Apostle and breaking ways with the Jewish followers of Jesus in Jerusalem

    Right off the bat we got a problem. Scripture says that the other apostles accepted Paul as an apostle, they "added nothing" to his teachings, and they "gave him the right had of fellowship".

    Galatians 2

    Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

    2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, ...

    7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

    8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

    9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    Scripture says they were all preaching the same message and were in agreement. Peter, James and John, the big three gave him their blessing and "added nothing to my message" - Gal. 2: 6 NIV

    Jehovah's Witnesses are obsessed with the earliest form worship that the followers of Jesus had. They were basically practicing Jews who also accepted Jesus' teachings. They still celebrated the Jewish festivals and went to the temple. That is why they were hated by the Sadducees, and Pharisees. It was their job to keep Judaism pure and free from non-Judaic religious belief or practice. Jehovah's Witnesses are an offshoot of that early, brief period that existed shortly after Jesus death.

    I tend to agree with this. I would probably state it a little differently. JW's are obsessed with living in the prior dispensation (age of law) and the future dispensation (Millennium age) and do not live in the age we are now in... the age of grace.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Quotations from history

    Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-108): Nothing visible is eternal. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed [in His glory]. Christianity is not a thing of silence only, but also of [manifest] greatness. (Letter to the Romans, 3,3)


    Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155): Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth . . ., and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead. (Polycarp, Philippians, 12:2. Holmes, AF, 295)

    Note: Polycarp was martyred because He refused to deny Jesus deity, they tried to burn him they could not, then they pierced him,

    **He was direct disciple of John the apostle as Ignatius too**.


    Epistle of Barnabas (written c. 70–130): “If the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make humankind according to our image and likeness,” how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of humans?” (Epistle of Barnabas, 5.5. Holmes, AF, 393)


    177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality.

    By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).


    180 AD IRENAEUS OF SMYRNA.

    "But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues..." (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9).


    190 AD Clement Of Alexandria 'For both are one — that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God." (The Instructor, Book 1, ch 8)


    190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father's will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father's right hand, and with the form of God is God." (Instructor, Book I, ch. 2)


    200 AD Tertullian "Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, 'I and my Father are One' [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number" (Against Praxeas, 25)



  • Riley
    Riley

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN9GqiAjEYI&t=24s

    The reason I am no longer a JW. Smart guy.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    That was a very interesting video clip Riley. Thanks for posting.

  • GodBeliever
    GodBeliever

    Vanderhoven
    I totally agree with you that everything was done in Jesus's name. But this was Jehovah's decision to vindicate and glorify His name trough his son. He wished to exalt Jesus to the highest position in the Universe but not above himself.

    "You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him."John 3:16‭-‬17

    "and a voice came from the heavens: “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”Mark 1:1

    “I will announce the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have fathered You. ‘Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the nations as Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth as Your possession. Psalms 2:7

    "Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life."John 17:1‭-‬2

    "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have fathered You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He will be a Son to Me”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.” But regarding the Son He says, “Your throne, God, is forever and ever, And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your companions.”
    Hebrews 1:1‭-‬6‭, ‬8‭-‬9

    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."Colossians 1:15‭-‬20

    Jesus is not a mere creature, he is the only son of God, he is God but not the Almighty God, as he was created in God's likeness. After that everything and everyone else was created through Him and for Him. He is the mediator between the man and God. That's why WT are where they are now because they abandoned Jesus and tried to bypass Him and go directly to Jehovah. Jesus said that nobody can have a relationship with the Father but trough Him.
    Jesus was given life in himself. He didn't have life in himself (he wasn't immortal) in the beginning after he was createdby Jehovah, whereas the Father who doesn't have a beginning, is and has always been immortal.

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, a time is coming and even now has arrived, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man."
    John 5:25‭-‬27

  • GodBeliever
    GodBeliever
    Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. 1 John 4:15‭
  • Riley
    Riley

    Do realize the term “ son of god” means the essence of god in the flesh. The term “ son of man “ means “ human one”.

    The idea that god had a baby is kind of silly IMHO.

  • GodBeliever
    GodBeliever

    "Do realize the term “ son of god” means the essence of god in the flesh. "

    Yes, that is what it means for you. Son of God when it refers to Jesus it means exactly that. The bible doesn't give another interpretation. Adam was never a baby neither any spiritual being created by God including Jesus.


    "When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
    Job 38:7
    "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons and daughters of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons and daughters by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
    Romans 8:14-‬17

    Jesus was the only one that was given life by God. Anyone else have become sons of God trough Jesus.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    A good book on the topic of Jesus as Son of God among the early Christians is King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human and Angelic Figures in Biblical and Related Literature by Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins. The authors are among the most senior Bible scholars alive, having served as past presidents of the Society of New Testament Studies and the Society of Biblical Literature.

    https://www.amazon.com/King-Messiah-Son-God-Literature/dp/0802807720/

    Bringing together the evidence from the Gospel of John and Revelation in particular, it concludes:

    “Both authors associate Jesus with the wisdom tradition. The Gospel identifies personified wisdom with the word of God as the philosophical logos. Revelation does not go in that direction. It depicts Jesus as “the beginning of the creation of God” in 3:14, which recalls the Greek version of Prov 8:22, “The LORD created me as the beginning of his ways for his works.” Although they do not allude specifically to texts about wisdom, certain ambiguous sayings of the risen Jesus in Revelation are best understood in relation to personified wisdom. He affirms that he is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, and the beginning and the end (1:17; 22:13). In light of the evidence that the author of Revelation portrays Jesus as the heavenly messiah who is also the principal angel of God, these sayings are best interpreted as associating Jesus with personified wisdom as God’s first creature. Although some elements of these sayings are also attributed to God, it is unlikely that the author intends to identify Christ with God. Rather, the common affirmations signify that Christ participated in creation and will participate in the full manifestation of the rule of God as God’s agent. The Gospel and Revelation both present Jesus as preexistent and as divine in some sense. In the Gospel he is either and emanation of God, or God’s first creature, namely, the only-begotten god. In Revelation, the evidence suggests that he is God’s first creature, namely, the principal angel.” (Page 203)
  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    One cannot legitimately have a relationship with an angel. That is spiritism. That is why Jehovah's Witnesses can't legitimately say they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ where they talk to Him or call on Him or fellowship with Him or share their burdens with Him... let alone worship Him. He does not even mediate for them ...only for the small remnant anointed.

    As I have said before, there is something terribly wrong when it is not legitimate to say, "Thank you my Saviour for dying for me!"

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