What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 263 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment
    SBF: "How come the people who insist the pronunciation of the divine name is a deal breaker don’t say the same about Jesus, whose pronunciation in the first century clearly does not match?"

    Precisely! You could have used bold letters to emphasize this. Those who ignore this issue are just reflecting their religious bias.

    Furthermore, some posters keep making the same assumptions as a fact, like the Divine Name was never in the original manuscripts. Textual experts, of the like of, Bruce B. Metzger & Philip W. Comfort have pointed out that the original text have been tampered with in hundreds of places, not surprisingly, many in places where the identity of God and Jesus were confounded. The Divine Name most likely suffered the fate of this state of confusion leading to its removal by unscrupulous copyists, as evidence suggest.

    Another mistake often overlooked, is the tendency of people of this era looking at the NT with posterior or subsequent NT interpretations, not by the more relevant Jewish standpoint. Most of the Jewish people during the 1st century did not believe that Jesus Christ was their promised Messiah. They mostly believed in the Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as Jehovah, or whatever name you prefer to replace the Tetragrammaton with. There was no need to convince the Jews that Yahweh was their God. They already accepted that!

    What the Jews did need to comprehend during the 1st century was that their salvation was contingent on accepting Yahweh's messenger, Jesus Christ. Hence, the need to repeat this important message throughout the NT. (John 3.16, Acts 4.12) The Hebrews already honored Yahweh for nearly 2,000 years. Would they now accept this Messenger, their "Messiah?" Would they now 'honor him as they honored the Father,' who sent him? (John 5.23) That was their test of faith.

    Moving forward in time, religious folks often make the most obvious blunders. They even fail to apply John 14.6 correctly (No one comes to the Father, except through me). Trinitarians tend to honor Jesus more than the Sender, the Father who sent him. And JWs tend to place Jesus below their organization. These extreme views are biblically off.

    Those who cite John 1.3 & Col 1.16 that "all things were created by Christ" as proof that Christ is Almighty God in a trinitarian sense need to check their favorite Concordance. The original words for "all" in the Bible rarely means "everything." Often there are exceptions to the meaning of the "all" word, as is clearly shown in the following verse. (1 Cor 15.27) Even modern folks rarely use "all" to include everything under the sun. Example: All were present at the church. Does this include the whole town?

  • GodBeliever
    GodBeliever

    SB
    If we talk about hell and the immortality of the soul we are going in another direction not supported by the bible. All these are old pagan teachings. Why do you think the Egyptians built the pyramids?
    The bible teaches that humans die and then they are being resurrected. No human goes to heaven until the second coming of Jesus.

    "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
    1 Thessalonians 4:14‭-‬18

    "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."
    John 3:12‭-‬13

    "This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.” Therefore Thomas, who was called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, “Let’s also go, so that we may die with Him!”
    John 11:11‭-‬13‭, ‬15‭-‬16

    "Only the one who sins shall die, "
    Ezekiel 18:20
    "All these died in faith. They did not receive what had been promised but saw it and greeted it from afar and acknowledged themselves to be strangers and aliens on earth,"Hebrews 11:13

    "I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous."Acts 24:15

    For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”
    John 6:40

    The bible clearly does not teach that only the body dies and the soul goes to heaven.
    You say the same about Jesus that he didn't die. Whereas the bible says he died and was resurrected by God on the third day:
    "For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave."Acts 2:27

    "For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died." 1 Corinthians 15:3‭-‬4‭, ‬6

    but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.Genesis 3:3‭-‬5

    You went for that lie.

    I believe our discussion is ending here. If you want to believe a lie it's your choice. Nice, having a discussion with you regarding the bible. Thank you.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    GB says: who are you anyway to say to whom these scriptures apply or not?

    I'm sorry GB, I thought you knew. Virtually all of the NT scriptures don't apply to you, (according to your leader) especially ones that say you can be saved and have guarantees for life.

    United in Worship p.111
    "Special attention was being given to making up the government that would rule mankind for 1,000 years, and nearly all the inspired letters in the Christian Greek Scriptures are primarily directed to this group of Kingdom heirs - "the holy ones," "partakers of the heavenly calling."

    Watchtower 1974 June 15 p.376
    "Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life."


    The bible teaches that humans die and then they are being resurrected. No human goes to heaven until the second coming of Jesus.

    Here your confusion is related to the fact that you hold a materialism view of the nature of man.

    The bible says we are a tri-partite being with each part "You". I have explained this scripturally before to you but you don't receive it.

    2 Corinthians 5:8

    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    2 Corinthians 5:6

    Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord


    When a Christian dies his soul (him) is immediately in the presence of the Lord in heaven. This is not a resurrection.

    A resurrection occurs when the soul, body and spirt are united. Only then does a resurrection occur.

    You have a hard time with this concept because of your WT indoctrination. Would you like to see a biblical definition of death?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Vanderhovan7 how do you know that the name of God isn’t on the lips of Jesus? What we do know is that Greek copies of the Bible used the name Yaho in Jesus’ time. We know that Roman authors said the Jews in the period called their God Yaho. Plus we know that Christians continued to refer to their God as Yaho for centuries in their dictionaries. The simplest conclusion would be that Jesus and his followers used God’s name in the form Yaho because that was Jewish practice in that period.

    On top of that we have a lot of internal evidence in the NT that Jesus made God’s name known, Jesus sits at the right hand of Jehovah in early Christian conception, and that the early Christians were associated closely with God’s name as in Acts 15. Textual scholar David Trobisch, Jewish scholar Lloyd Gaston, evangelical John McRay, and classicist Frank Shaw have joined George Howard in arguing that contemporary scribal practice, and variants in the NT manuscripts indicate that the divine name was used in the early NT just as it was used in the early LXX.
  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7
    @Slim

    "How do you know that the name of God isn’t on the lips of Jesus?"

    Jesus may have spoken the name of God but there is no evidence of that in the New Testament or any of the thousands of copies of ancient NT manuscripts and fragments thereof in our possession.

    Why do you think someone or some group would want to eradicate the name of God from the ancient manuscripts of the New Testament? And why would they leave the 3 "Hallelujahs in Revelation intact?

  • GodBeliever
    GodBeliever

    Slim,

    Jesus came to glorify Jehovah name. For some reason people don't like His name.

    "Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not for mine."

    John 12:28‭-‬30

    "leave the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.”

    Isaiah 30:11

  • waton
    waton

    famous last words: "Eli, El, why have you forsaken me ?."

    Prayer instruction: " Our father in the heavens --- a men"

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    GB

    That saying the name of Jesus is emphasized more than that of the Father in the New Testament says nothing of my appreciation for either name and more importantly, my love for either Father or Son. Nor is it a reflection of who I think is more important.

    But the New Testament emphasizes Jesus name because without faith in His name, there is no salvation.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    I had thought that original edition of the Gospel which is attributed as being according to Matthew (the one commonly called the "Gospel According to Matthew" and the "Gospel of Matthew") might have originally been in Hebrew or Aramaic and that it might have contained the name YHWH in it. But maybe no ancient copy of that gospel ever contained the name YHWH (or any variation of the divine name) - especially when quoting the words of Jesus and other Christians.

    Various books and articles about the Jewish religion say that at about the 3rd century BCE the Jewish religion started forbidding Jews from pronouncing the name out loud. As a result if Jesus had used the name out loud publicly, he probably would have gotten in major trouble with the religious authorities specifically for doing such. Yet the Gospels never say the religious authorities (or anyone else) faulted him or anyone else for using the name. Surely if Jesus really existed and if he had spoken the name out loud publicly the Gospels would have said that the religious leaders faulted him for speaking the name. [A number of times the 'Gospel of Matthew' even says the "kingdom of heaven" as way to avoid saying the "kingdom of God", and that gospel was especially written to convert Jews to Jesus.] Though the gospels say that Jesus was charged with blasphemy, for claiming to be God (such as when using the phrase "I am" in reference to himself) and for claiming to be the divine Son of Man of heaven - it was not for speaking the name YHWH. Furthermore, all of the extant Greek NT manuscripts lack the name YHWH and virtually all of the extant Greek manuscripts of the OT lack it also.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism says the following. 'It had ceased to be spoken aloud by at least the 3rd century BCE, during Second Temple Judaism.[19] ... Rabbinical Judaism teaches that the name is forbidden to all except the High Priest, who should only speak it in the Holy of Holies of the Temple in Jerusalem on Yom Kippur. He then pronounces the name "just as it is written."[26] As each blessing was made, the people in the courtyard were to prostrate themselves completely as they heard it spoken aloud. As the Temple has not been rebuilt since its destruction in 70, most modern Jews never pronounce YHWH but instead read Adonai ("My Lord") during prayer and while reading the Torah and as HaShem ("The Name") at other times.[27][28] '

    The Gospel of Matthew and in the Gospel of Luke tell the wording of what is now called the "Model prayer" (also known as the "Our Father prayer" and the "Lord's prayer'). That prayer though addressing God, never uses the name YHWH nor any form it, nor even the word "God" ("Theos" in Greek). Instead it addresses God as "Our Father who/which is in Heaven" (in the Gospel of Matthew) and simply as "Father" (in the Gospel of Luke). Online sources (such as the one mentioned above) say that even in our modern time, that when praying to God Jews are to avoid using the name "YHWH"/"Yahweh" or even "Elohim" (God). They are allowed to say "Adonai' ("my Lord") instead. The Gospels thus depict Jesus is adhering to the Jewish requirement of not uttering the divine name.

    However there are writings from about the 1st century CE which say that some people used the divine name in magical rites, such as in incantations for expelling demons.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus states reasons why people of the religion of Judaism reject Jesus as the foretold Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. Many of the reasons, ones based upon the Hebrew Scriptures, are ones I was not aware of. I am impressed by the vast majority of their reasons (note what is said under the headings of "Background" and "Jesus as the Jewish Messiah"). Such makes a strong case for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah/Christ, for rejecting Christianity as being the true religion, and thus for rejecting the NT as holy scripture. It can thus be used as part of set of arguments useful to atheists to persuade some Christians towards atheism. I appreciate that.

  • GabeAthouse
    GabeAthouse

    Jesus came to glorify Jehovah name. For some reason people don't like His name.


    Why would such trivialities be of the slightest concern to an omnipotent, omniscient, immortal, Universe creator?

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