What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 263 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    GB, I'm still trying to figure out how JW's hope to get their sins forgiven without Jesus as their Mediator. I have asked you several times, but you keep dodging the question.

    The entire world knows that JW's are not allowed to accept Jesus as their Mediator.

    Scripture says that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 9: 15) Matt. 16: 27-28 explicitly states that the new covenant is for the forgiveness of sins.

    So, it looks like JW's are trained to lie about this most important offer from Jesus. Then, once people are baptized, they are disfellowshipped if they balk about this and they lose their family members forever. Most, just realize that they got scammed and keep quite about it. Others commit suicide. Still others try to lead a double life.

    What is it that keeps JW's such as yourself from sharing the basis for their faith? I have asked you several times. If it is not the new covenant, and if it is not Jesus being their Mediator, then what is it?

    The February 15, 1991 issue of the Watchtower, pgs. 15-20 paragraph 11; makes this announcement:

    11 Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them (the great crowd)

    Yet, when asked publicly, JW's claim just the opposite of what they believe privately as shown below. Why would otherwise nice people so blatantly lie like this right to peoples faces? Especially since, like yourself they wont tell you how they do get their sins forgiven. It makes no sense.


  • GabeAthouse

    I'm still trying to figure out how JW's hope to get their sins forgiven without Jesus as their Mediator.

    I'm still trying to figure out how an omnipotent deity sacrificing himself to himself to save humanity from himself (giving up a 3 day weekend) makes a bit of sense to millions of grownups in the 21st century.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    It's not really difficult to understand GabeAthouse. Didn't you hear? A man walked out of a tomb after being publicly crucified.

    The whole world counts time by this mans birth. A majority of scholars, skeptic, atheist and otherwise agree on these 12 points regarding this event. All you have to do is come up with some plausible explanations for these points and then we can all forget about the whole thing. If you can't come up with plausible explanations, then it is easy to understand why some people would listen to a man who came back from the dead.

  • Riley

    So basically

    1. Lets ignore the fact tetragrammaton is more likely pronounced as yahweh not jehovah.

    2. There are no copies of the new testament that contain the tetragrammaton.

    3. The new testament ambiguously applies the tetragrammaton to both god and jesus from old testament quotes.

    4. Lets not deal with the idea that the only scriptures first century Christians had was the old testament. There is no need to look at the ambiguous nature of yahweh in the old testament. Is there two or one, I don't get it. Boy, some of these terms being re-quoted in the new testament sure seem familiar.

    5. Lets completely ignore the fact that the people who believe this stuff come from an environment where you will have your family taken away from you if you disagree with any of the theology.

    Anyone smell anything ?

  • GabeAthouse

    The whole world counts time by this mans birth.

    That's because Europe was Christian and due to some quirks of history Europe became top dog during the renaissance and colonized most of the world. It just became the standard way, although non christian countries also have their own calendars based on their revered religious figures.

    English has become the lingua franca of most of the world as well. Nothing miraculous about it. Just a consequence of the British Empire and by extension the United States.

    As far as your other list.

    He died by crucifixion:
    Many did. It was Rome.

    He was buried.
    You dont say...

    His death caused his disciples to despair and lose hope.
    Yes. People are upset when their friends are executed

    The tomb was empty
    Its claimed. Its also claimed that Mohammed ascended to Heaven from where the dome of the rock currently stands. The muslims also became bold proclaimers and conquered a great deal of the former christian world.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Don't you think it was in the interest of Rome and the Pharisees to find that body no matter what? I mean Jesus said he would resurrect himself? Why was no body ever found?

    Christians starting preaching Jesus' resurrection almost immediately, right in the heart of Judaism in Jerusalem. If it was a hoax there would have been those in position to prove it.

    The Jewish religion has been around for thousands of years. They are extremely resistant to change.... especially stuff like the Sabbath. What could cause thousands of Orthodox Jews to suddenly stop making Saturday their holy day and change it to Sunday?

    What could cause hundreds of people to claim that they saw and spoke to the risen Jesus. If they were lying, why would they die for something they KNEW to be a lie?

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze (and like minded ones), why do think the Jews who became followers of Jesus primarily were Orthodox Jews, instead of Hellenized Jews like Stephen and Saul/Paul, and others (Acts 6:1-6; 8:4-5)? All of Paul's letters in our NT were written in Greek, and they were addressed to congregations which included Jews, and they were also addressed to individuals. Even the anonymous letter called "To the Hebrews" is in Greek. Furthermore, in one of Paul's letters Paul said it is OK if a honor one day as a special day (such as the Sabbath), and he said it is OK treat all days as alike. Note that Romans 14:5-6 (NKJV) says the following. "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; [a]and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." ["a. Romans 14:6 NU omits the rest of this sentence."] Furthermore, the NT says that Jesus said he is Lord of the Sabbath.

    Some of the church 'fathers' wrote that there were Torah keeping Jewish believers in Jesus as the Messiah, such as the Nazarenes, Ebionites, and others, and there is evidence that some of those groups were still in existence in the 2nd century CE. Even our modern western Christianized Roman weekly calendar has both Saturday (the Sabbath day and 7th day of the week) and Sunday (the first day of the week) as the two days the 'weekend'. By the way, in Spanish the word ("sábado") for the seventh day of the week literally means "Sabbath" (and Spanish and Latin cultures are predominately Christian, not Jewish ones). To me this indicates that many early gentile Christians also observed the 7th day as a Sabbath (but perhaps I am wrong about that). See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity . It says in part the following.

    "Early Christians, at first mainly Jewish, observed the seventh-day Sabbath with prayer and rest, but gathered on the seventh day, Saturday, reckoned in Jewish tradition as beginning, like the other days, at sunset on what would now be considered the Friday evening. At the beginning of the second century Ignatius of Antioch approved non-observance of the Sabbath.[2] ...

    Beginning about the 17th century, a few groups of Restorationist Christians, mostly Seventh-day Sabbatarians, formed communities that adopted the original interpretation of law, either Christian or Mosaic, reminiscent of the early Christian church. ...

    The Sabbath continued to be observed on the seventh day in the early Christian church.[note 1] To this day, the liturgical day continues to be observed in line with the Hebrew reckoning in the church calendars in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy.[10] "

    The article also says the following. 'Jewish Christians continued to observe Shabbat but met together at the end of the day, on a Saturday evening. In the gospels, the women are described as coming to the empty tomb Greek: εις μια των σαββατων, lit. 'toward the first [day] of the Sabbath',[13] although it is often translated "on the first day of the week". ...

    The 2nd and 3rd centuries solidified the early church's emphasis upon Sunday worship and its rejection of a Jewish (Mosaic Law-based) observation of the Sabbath and manner of rest. '

    There is thus evidence that for a period of time a number of Jewish Christians honored both the 1st and 7th days of the week. Furthermore, consider the following.

    Jesus (if he ever existed as a real person, instead of a myth) lived on Earth during the time of the second temple period of Judaism. During that time there were multiple sects of Judaism, including Essenes, those who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, Pharisees, Saducees, Zealots, and those who followed Jesus. Some of those lived in the time before the birth of Jesus, and some of those had some teachings which were long thought (such as after the year 1000 CE) to be uniquely Christian teachings, but which in the past 100 years have been discovered to predate the first century CE.

    Regarding whether all (or even most) of the Christians of the first and second centuries CE believe that Jesus Christ had a bodily fleshly resurrection, instead of solely a spiritual resurrection, consider the following.

    Some of the first century Christians believed that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit without a fleshly human body. A number of scholars say that the latter gospels (Luke and John) have passages saying that Jesus had a fleshly resurrected body (and/or that the resurrection body ate food) in order to refute those Christians were believed otherwise. The highly influential New Testament scholar Bart Erhman says the following at https://www.bartehrman.com/physical-vs-spiritual-resurrection/ says the following.

    "Paul never mentions an empty tomb. ...

    His letters do not address any conspiracy regarding a grave robbery. ...

    According to Paul, it was Peter who saw the risen Jesus first–but again, no mention of how, when, or where. ...

    A careful reading of Paul’s emphatic usage of Jesus’ “bodily” resurrection reveals that Paul was repeatedly referring to Jesus rising from the dead in a “spiritual” body (Romans 6:5, 2nd Corinthians 5:16-17, Philippians 3:10-11.)

    That Jesus rose bodily from the dead was a foregone conclusion–what Paul sought to communicate with the church at Corinth was the way in which Jesus lives on. What Paul means by “spiritual body” is perplexing. ...

    Docetics believed that Jesus only appeared as a human being but was primarily spirit in substance. ... Docetism was an extreme byproduct of Gnosticism, which was arguably the biggest opponent to the orthodoxy of the ancient Christian Church.

    ... It was the existence of these belief systems about Jesus that likely motivated the orthodox Christian Church to canonize which writings belonged and which ones needed to go away, a process which is described and confronted here.

    As belief in Jesus’ physical and/or spiritual bodily resurrection became the modus operandi for religious leaders, the other forms of Christian thought (especially Gnosticism, Docetism, and Arianism) were discredited or destroyed.

    Fast forward to the cultural embrace of science and reason during a period known as The Enlightenment in the 1800’s. During this period Bible-loving Christians felt very threatened by those on the outside looking in on the Christian institution, so the institutional authorities doubled down on Biblical literalism."

    See also https://jamestabor.com/why-a-spiritual-resurrection-is-the-only-sensible-option/ . it says in part the following.

    'That is why finding the decayed bones of Jesus in an ossuary, as might well be the case Talpiot tomb in Jerusalem, as I have argued here on this blog and extensively in our book, The Jesus Discovery, does not contradict the earliest faith in Jesus’ resurrection by his first followers. What has happened is that people have conflated the later accounts in the Gospels, especially in Luke and John, where Jesus clearly appears as a “revived corpse” and even asks for food to eat–declaring himself to be “flesh and blood,” with the much earlier views the gospel of Mark (with no appearances of Jesus), the fragment ending of the Gospel of Peter, and Matthew–that are much more compatible with Paul’s earlier view (50s CE) of “seeing” Jesus’ spiritual body. The idea those who “sleep in the dust” awakening, or the sea “giving up” the dead that are in it, makes it crystal clear that resurrection of the dead has to do with a transformed “heavenly” existence, not a revival of the scant remains of those long ago turned to “dust and ashes” as the phrase goes (Daniel 12:2-3; Revelation 20:13). One might also recall that, according to Jesus, those who experience the “age to come” and the resurrection of the dead, are transformed into an “angelic” state, no longer male or female with physical bodies (Luke 20:34-38).'

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze, I think it can accurately be said that the WT teaches (even if only indirectly) that the 'anointed' governing body members of the JW religion act as mediators between the "other sheep" (prospective "great crowd members) and Jesus Christ. As a result non-anointed JWs believe that as long as they remain in good standing as JWs (and stay within what the WT teaches is Jehovah God's modern day Ark, namely the WT's JW religion) till the end of their life (if they die before the great tribulation) or until through the great tribulation and Armageddon, then they will very likely get salvation as eternal life on Earth. Furthermore the JWs believe essential teachings of the WT which must held to obtain eternal include those found in the NWT which the Bible at John 3:16 and John 17:3 attributes to sayings of Jesus Christ.

    One time, the WT in an organization chart showed the governing body of 'anointed' ones as in between Jesus Christ and the non-anointed JWs (or the congregations). I thus think that JWs think that they receive some of the same benefits (namely a prospect for eternal life and for forgiveness of sins) as the anointed ones who are thought to be the new covenant.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    For clarity, I reword the last sentence of my prior post to say the following. "I thus think that JWs think that they receive some of the same benefits (namely a prospect for eternal life and for forgiveness of sins) that they believe will be received by the anointed ones who are thought to be in the new covenant."

  • smiddy3

    Didn`t the " Aid " book acknowledge that the name / word Jehovah was not the correct pronunciation of God`s name but that was the most common /popular name in use .?

    I ask : In use by who? By Christendom ? Who else would be using the name of God if n the people of Christendom ?

    So why would Jehovah`s Witnesses / WTB&TS follow the traditions of Christendom and not use the more accepted pronunciation of God`s name as Yahweh ?

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