"You're cheating your friends, family and yourself out of what should be one of the best parts of your life." How exactly is she cheating herself? Developing a great, normal relationship which as lead to love(I'm assuming based on what's written this is what has happened). Is the guy married to someone else? Is he a psychopathic killer? Only the JW's can make a normal relationship sound so friggin' warped. " Not to mention how Jehovah feels about the whole thing." Ah, yes, wonder how Jehovah feels? Girl meets boy. Girl likes boy. Girl dates boy. They fall in love. I cannot imagine anything more horrific in Jehovah's eyes. I'm ashamed to say in my JW uppity teenage days, I wrote one of my friends a similar letter. In my defense (there's not much of one), at least it was more direct. I swear, I'm convinced that my uppity JW judgment reflected a bit of envy, denial, and repression. I think on some level I wanted to be free enough to do what she was doing. There were guys I wanted to date in h/s, and guys who wanted to date me. Couldn't happen of course. Not until much later. My friend that I wrote to would be interested to know that I've dated plenty of "worldy guys" since then. Sounds like your daughter has her head on straight. Sounds like her friend has hers somewhere else.
Daughter counselled on dating a wordly guy
Sorry, just backed up to read you daughter's original reply, and then her friends reply to her. Your daughter's post was perfect, thoughtful, not antagonist. I cannot believe her friend's reply to her. LOL, SHE'S getting confused with the third person suddenly. Even when you daughter gave her an opportunity to take a look at herself and what crap she's heaping on her so-called "friend," she fails to do so. Goes right back to the guilt trip, even more directly so. Typical JW.
I forgot to mention that years ago when I wrote a similar letter to a friend of mine, she replied back in the "appropriate" way. She said something like: "I read your message as I cried. I know you are right." Ugh!! (she ended up marrying the guy).
I think your daughter, if she chooses to re-reply, needs to get to the point. SHE sees no reason why she should lose her friend's friendship or love. Her FRIEND is choosing to do that based on unreasonable conditions. She can only hope that the relationship she is developing with her boyfriend and with others will not be so easily lost for no reason. However, she will always be there for her friend, even if her friend cannot be there for her. (I'd personally leave it on a positive note, but that might not be for everyone).
I think Richard needs to post another GREAT response.
Minimus, I hope your daughter sees what a dysfunctional and guilt-filled relationship, this person is trying to impose on her. I am open mouthed at the arrogance mixed with condescending attitude this person is showing. Honestly, if it were me, I would reply with silence. This person is not reasonable, and whatever friendship they might have had at one time is long since been destroyed, not by your daughter but by a faux Christian showing conditional love offering a relationship filled with guilt hooks.
Minimus, this comment from the original email really struck me:
S ee, she had dated this brother for a while, but things didn't turn out the way she hoped. And then it seemed that all of her friends were getting married, when she had hoped that she would be too. And I know that's a really hard thing to deal with. But that's absolutely no excuse to go and date a worldly guy.
It is so hard to be a young woman in this cult. If you are not married by 18, its slim pickings and you are considered an old maid....desperation time. My daughter was 21 when she took her own life. I know that the fact that all of her friends were either engaged, married, or married with children already placed a great deal of pressure on her. She was a regular pioneer for four years, and didn't have any brothers show interest in her. She met a "party witness", a young unbaptized man that enjoyed providing alcohol to young witness girls at parties. She gave in to her natural feelings of wanting to be in a relationship. Her "friends" told the elders about it, they threatened to disfellowship her, and the next day she took her life.
Please tell your daughter I wish my daughter had been able to find a nice "worldly" guy and have a happy relationship. I wish your daughter all the happiness and joy she deserves! Don't let this crazy cult member make her feel bad for doing the most natural thing in life, loving someone and being loved back...
This is really sad. I am sorry for your daughter because it sounds like, in all ways, she is trying to follow her heart and keep the peace. Your daughter's letter was very nice. I liked the advice that another poster gave:
I think your daughter, if she chooses to re-reply, needs to get to the point. SHE sees no reason why she should lose her friend's friendship or love. Her FRIEND is choosing to do that based on unreasonable conditions. She can only hope that the relationship she is developing with her boyfriend and with others will not be so easily lost for no reason. However, she will always be there for her friend, even if her friend cannot be there for her.
(my heart is broken at the thought of possibly losing you over a worldly guy) It really is her friends choice. Your daughter is not choosing anyone "over" anyone. This "friend" has put your daughter in a position of "him or me". And that is 100% wrong!! All your daughter can do is, if she wants to keep the friendship open, pretty much tell her "friend" like it is, and end it on an "I will always be here for you if you ever need me" note. This conditional friend stuff is something I just can't grasp. A friend is a friend no matter what (well with a few minor exceptions). Even if I disagree with what my friends do (which is often), I realize I am not their Lord and it is not my place to tell them what to do with their lives...and nothing they do, think, feel changes the fact that I love them and will always be here for them (excepting they do something vile like molest a child or kill someone, then I may have to think on the matter).
Sabine, your personal comments touched me. Thank you..............This response from my daughter's "friend" struck me as very weird. She sounds more like a boyfriend than a girl friend.
This whole situation touches me deeply as it so closely resembles my own experiences. I had friends write me letters when I began dating a "worldly" man. I had my sisters lecture me on how he was not going to be a good husband. I had my brother tell me that this man would end up being an alcoholic and divorce me. It breaks my heart to this day to think about how conditional their love is.
I don't know what to tell your daughter to say back to her friend now. If it was me, I probably wouldn't say anything now. There's no changing thier minds, y'know.
All I can say is that I hope that you will be there for your daughter. She will no doubt lose more "friends" if this relationship with this guy continues. She will need you. Also, when your daughter comes to you all twitterpated and in love talking about how her boyfriend said the funniest thing or how he did the sweetest thing for her, please listen and be happy for her. My parents reacted more like her friend, and I still can't understand why they couldn't just be happy to see me happy.
Maybe your daughter can re-reply by giving a definition of love, unconditional love that is (agape).
Love goes beyond opinion. Mates can differ in opinion on al assets of life, why should religion be excluded from this? Does he lead a clean, respectable life? That's what matters more than what religion he has. Among JW's there are also abusers. Religion is just a label, not a quality garanty!
Sabine, there are no words to comfort you in your loss. I hope you have found some way of dealing with the pain as it sounds like you have since you are able to share. If nothing impacts Min's daughter--your post should.
Minimus unfortuantely your daughter has come to the fork in the road. I think you and she know this. I had what I thought were friendsin JWs who would die for me. Now I know they would not even be happy for me, let alone something more. It hurts when you realize everything you were once willing to stake your entire life on was a lie, a delusion. Time for your daughter to go on with HER life and make some new friends---her new best friend should be her fiance now anyway.
There is no magic words to say to her old friend. The friend is too deeply deluded for anything to penetrate. I can tell you that when my sister left the JWs before I did and I wrote a similar letter to her--she wrote back in vicious anger and at the time I thought she was insane. But I remembered every word of it! And years later when I realized she was absolutely right--it was those very words that rang thru my head. Especially the word 'deluded' LOL. So if you daughter has the inclination--write her old friend a strong letter--use words like arrogant, conditional, self-righteous, and deluded. It may sting at first--but she will not forget it and they may come back to haunt her one day when she needs it most.
I fully support my daughter. And I'm not in the mood to placate the elders or anybody else. Blank them.