Lloyd Evans' New Book - Is It Really Necessary?

by pale.emperor 65 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  steve2

  His motive is to be the number one "apostate" in the world and make a living off it.

  I'm always interested when other people "know" someone's motive. I take it Lloyd hasn't ever said that's his motive - but one that's been imputed to him by someone else? Where have we heard that before? Ah yes! In JW organization where people habitually talk about other's motives and proceed as if a judgement is a fact..

  We come from a background in which elders "knew" what our motives were and judged us accordingly - despite our offering assurances that we were not out to cause trouble.

  Of course, I cannot say for sure that Lloyd's intentions are not to be the number one apostate and to make a living out of it. But then, who's motives in life are ever entirely pure? My view is if you have gifts or strengths in communication use them to the best of your ability. Just hope that others do not react with envy or attack your character when you do.
  
• 

  Londo111

  Indeed. None of us can read minds.
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  TerryWalstrom

  A handy quotation for just such circumstances as these:
  
  "To those who understand, no explanation is necessary. To those who do not

  understand, no explanation is possible."
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  JaniceA

  There is not much new to say about anything that hasn’t been said yet, both here, in print, etc. Some of us hear it better or get more insight from one account or storyteller. Repetition is a learning tool for many. This site and all the new YouTube stories, etc-there is nothing new but new people awaken, new mediums, new scandals(ssdd) mean that there will always be new books and stories and newspapers . Why not Lloyd? Or Barbara or pale emperor. Who was speaking of writing one also wasn’t he?
• 

  neverendingjourney

  I stopped going to meetings in 2005. I bought Crisis of Conscience in 2007.

  The first few JW-related books I read were excellent: CoC, Apocalypse Delayed, In Search of Christian Freedom, The Gentile Times Reconsidered. It started going downhill from there.

  The last JW-related book I read was something called the Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society. It was written anonymously and contained various unsubstantiated allegations. It read like a giant blog post from a random person sharing rumors we've all read about over the years on this forum.

  I don't begrudge anyone trying to make a few bucks off a book. The book-writing process is probably cathartic for a lot of people. I just don't expect the quality of any of these recent, self-published JW books to be very good.

  By the way, the following book is one of the best books I've read, even though it's not strictly about JWs. It's written by a former evangelical christian who left a high-control denomination. The author went on to become a psychologist.

  https://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Fold-Former-Fundamentalists-Religion/dp/1933993235

  http://marlenewinell.net/leaving-fold-former
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  steve2

  Thanks neverendingjourney. Perceptive comments - I too think that the four books you listed are unbeatable in terms of sheer quality, excellent writing and generous reference lists to back up their claims. Much that has followed reads like regurgitation of one kind or another - although I concede that different approaches and writing styles may strike chords with different people who, among other things, may find more scholarly books a bit daunting and/or unattractive.

  On the topic of unbeatable books on JWs, here's one from the early 1980s that I will always plug because of its sheer impact on me:

  Visions of Glory: A History and a Memory of Jehovah's Witnesses by the late Barabara Grizutti Harrison - a touching, humorous, insightful account of being raised by a headstrong JW parent. If I could write half as good as this gifted writer, I would die happy. I recall the first time I read her book: I was often in tears and laughing out loud at the same time. What I especially value about her book is its unique female perspective. A standout contribution to the vast ex-JW literature.
  
• 

  notsurewheretogo

  I'm always interested when other people "know" someone's motive. I take it Lloyd hasn't ever said that's his motive - but one that's been imputed to him by someone else? Where have we heard that before? Ah yes! In JW organization where people habitually talk about other's motives and proceed as if a judgement is a fact..
  We come from a background in which elders "knew" what our motives were and judged us accordingly - despite our offering assurances that we were not out to cause trouble.
  Of course, I cannot say for sure that Lloyd's intentions are not to be the number one apostate and to make a living out of it. But then, who's motives in life are ever entirely pure? My view is if you have gifts or strengths in communication use them to the best of your ability. Just hope that others do not react with envy or attack your character when you do.

  So you need to "tell people" what your motive is for others to see it? No...depending on the type of person you are motives can easily be deduced and when you add the quality of having a large ego then you can't help your motive being easily seen.

  I don't know his motive by hearing it from his lips but by gum I can see it clear as day...as I say it is not a bad thing really he wants to be number one apostate or make a living..it drives him on...I'm not overly judging him....just citing my opinion based on what I see from him and my own personal dealings with him (I've had a few).

  And I debate his strengths in communication...he has put together some cracking videos for sure but equally some really bad ones that put off those "on the fence".

  As I say I like some of his content but not the man himself in what I see and my personal dealings with him and the dealings I know he has had with others...it smacks of narcissism.

  But don't judge me that I'm still judging others like JW's do...because that is utter shit...I just have opinions about the man based on personal dealings. His content, the most important thing, is relatively good.

  Just because I think a person is a prick doesn't mean I envy them..it just means...I think they are a prick
• 

  steve2

  notsurewheretogo, it is great hearing your comments framed as opinion - for you are indeed entitled to your opinions.

  I may have missed that aspect in your earlier post - for which I apologize.

  There is a world of difference between someone saying, "In my opinion, his motive is to be the number one apostate etc..." and conveying that idea as an objective observable fact.

  I can look at Lloyd and listen to him and not reach the view that you have but an entirely different opinion. And so be it.

  As stated above, motives are deduced from all manner of things we observe which is why JW elders can look at and listen to us and conclude as factual that our motives are suspect - and they can spread that round as fact when it is really just opinion - and I might add, a convenient opinion.

  You took exception to my reminding you about our background; yet that is inescapable - it shapes the blinding ease with which we judge others and obscures the important difference between opinions and facts. We then end up speaking as if our opinions are as firm as facts - when it is our perceptions that shape what we think of others. I can dislike one person based on what I think her motives are but you may like the person because you have a different opinions of her motives.

  At the same time, I can step back and say, we are all entitled to our different opinions.
  

  But to reiterate: Had you expressed your earlier post as your opinion based on your observations, I would have concluded, "So be it. You're entitled to your opinion".
  
• 

  notsurewheretogo

  @steve2 fair enough...that is a nice post you have put there.

  I was not raised a JW, I became on at 20 and left at 36 and it took me no time at all to "leave" in all ways from the JW way of thinking and life because for the first 20 years I was "normal". :)

  I may be a bit strong with comments above and that may not be fair to the man...but then I don't know him, all I can go by is what I see, what I read and any personal dealings I have had. The fact is anyone who puts themselves out there has to expect that some will like or not like what they do, how they do etc...that is life and the internet.

  But Cedars, for all my opinions about him, is still achieving good with most of his work...I see past the man and look at his content and enjoy.

  I think that is the most important thing.

  I have a YouTube channel and do certain things on it, not related at all to JW's or activism and people are the same with me...some like me what I do how I do it etc and some do not...that is ok...if they don't want to see the content they don't watch it...if they do then great....it is no skin off my nose if they don't like it.
• 

  pale.emperor

  The title of this thread is Lloyd Evans' New Book - Is It Really Necessary?. I wasn't too sure if it was at the time of writing, and after reading the posts and input of you guys I'm still not sure if it is necessary. However, i do agree that anyone (especially ex-JWs) can write a book on JW related themes and I dont think that's a bad thing. I suppose the more books written about the cult the better eh? So there we have it, I asked the question, got the input and feel a bit more enlightened.

  The thread seems to have turned onto a Lloyd Evans character. I dont know Lloyd. He hasn't slighted me personally and therefore I have nothing against him. As I've said before I enjoy his videos, i dont watch all of them and tend to skip over some of the rebuttals due to the length of some of them, but at the very least im sure we can agree that Lloyd keeps us informed of Watchtower goings on?