How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  gumby

  SC,

  The Bible says "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise"(2 Peter 3:9). What He is waiting for is the last of His elect to become saved. For the "fullness of the Gentiles to come in.

  So God is "waiting for ones to be born who will become the elect? This would mean God knows who are his before they are born as with Jacob and esau correct? Let's say there are 100 more of the elect for god to bring in before he sends Jesus the second time to gather his church and destroy the wicked. The last of these 100 will not be born till 2089.

  Question....will God actually let the world perhaps come to the brink of destruction with millions dying from hunger, crime, accidents, disease, ..........so he can spare the last one of the elect who isn't born yet? Would God allow millions to die.......to save the one elect?

  If you say yes to this then I guess my part is over on this particular thread........there isn't much left to say.

  Also.....you said I was never saved or else I would not have "fallen away". By this statement you are saying a "true believer" ....will NEVER fall away. He is eternally saved and no one can snatch them from the lord's hand. You are saying that ALL who fall away from the lord were never REALLY Christian to begin with.

  I guess I'm a bad man deep inside then SC. My faith was false, my heart was bad, I was weak.

  I guess the 4 years I spent faithfully at a Bible study program( an in depth one ) and my 40 years as a dub, and the 3 years of attending Church was pointless for me eh?.....as I was never saved. I guess the person who goes to church for the first time and cries and accepts Jesus who becomes saved.......is a better man than I. Maybe I should just kill myself because no matter how hard I try.....I am not one of the lords. I knocked and knocked and he wouldn't open.....because I am not one of his......................Is this how you see me SC?

  And you wonder why we get upset with believers

  Gumby
• 

  Abaddon

  Oh-burdinky-blu bing bo bembalum, bo-binka du du pa u hur-hur-hur!

  Sorry, that's Swedish Chef for "your arguement is based upon the pre-existing assumption that god exists, you make statements claiming that society 'proves' Jesus exists, which shows your lack of knowledge about non-Christo/Judaeo/Islamic society, you have yet to prove anything, and until you look it up you probably won't know what teleological means".

  Very dense language, Swedish Chef is, very dense.

  With a handle like that, you can't be surprised if it gets used.

  But seriously, doesn't it worry you that your arguement is so closed ended and pre-assumptive, and that you obviously have a low level of knowledge of some of the things you claim are evidences for your beliefs?

  For example, your 'proof' that Jesus life was lived according to prophecy. This proof is the same as the 'proof' that Mohammed went to heaven, that flowers sprang up in the footsteps of the Buddha, and that going to Lourdes can cure you. It's recorded in books and attested to by people, but that is DIFFERENT from being proof.

  This can only seen as reasonable proof by someone who has their analytical skills smothered by too-long an association with the Borg.

  Equivalently flawed logic is quoting the scripture "All scriptures are inspired and benficial... " to prove the divine authorship of the Bible, That's like saying Enron accounts are honest, because it says they are in the report.
• 

  SwedishChef

  Gumby,
  
  We are all "bad men" inside. We have all sinned, our righteousness is as filthy rags, our hearts are desperately wicked, as says the Bible. We have all transgressed against an infinite and Holy God. Church can't save an individual. Placing your faith in your own works is vain. You will certainly not go far being a JW, as they are a cult.
  
  The Bible says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." It also says we are saved by the grace of God, and by the works of the law shall no man be justified. God sent His only begotten Son to die for sinners such as you and I. And all who come to Him, trusting in Him alone and not in works, repenting and believing in Jesus Christ, will be saved.
  
  All who come to Him, he will in no wise cast out. The invitation is for all. However, not all will come. "Many are called, but few are chosen", says Jesus. (Matt 22:14)
• 

  SwedishChef

  Gumby,
  "I guess the person who goes to church for the first time and cries and accepts Jesus who becomes saved.......is a better man than I. Maybe I should just kill myself because no matter how hard I try.....I am not one of the lords. I knocked and knocked and he wouldn't open.....because I am not one of his......................Is this how you see me SC?"
  Gumby, I don't know you, and I cannot make any assumptions about you beyond what the Bible tells me. And what the Bible tells me is, that a person who falls away was never saved to begin with.
  When I challenged the "salvation" you had back then, you gave me a list of all the works you did. This is further evidence that your heart was in the wrong place. If you had asked me why I am saved, I would say because I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of God. Though my sins were as scarlet, they have been washed white as wool. (Isaiah 1:18) Salvation has nothing to do with ones own works, for nothing can be done to attain it: It is through God's infinite mercy and grace alone.
  Furthermore, you said you were a dub. Therefore, whether you realize it or not, you have been fed false doctrine. If you would like more information on doctrine, I would be glad to help in any way I can.
  "Question....will God actually let the world perhaps come to the brink of destruction with millions dying from hunger, crime, accidents, disease, ..........so he can spare the last one of the elect who isn't born yet? Would God allow millions to die.......to save the one elect?"
  You have faced me with a difficult question. All I can say is that the fullness of the Gentiles will come in before the return of Christ, and nothing will thwart this plan. John 6:37a "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me." God is ultimately in control of the world. But just as He allowed the wickedness of Israel run rampant, so He is with the Gentile world. And just as Israel received constant warning, so is the Gentile world. Just as God brought judgment on Israel, so will He do with the Gentile world.
• 

  Stan Conroy

  Hi SwedishChef,

  You made the claim that the Bible has never been proved wrong. What about Isaiah 17:1? This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities.

  or Jeremiah 49:33

  Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by jackels. But people still live there today.

  Stan
• 

  rem

  UnDisfellowshipped,

  You know, those Gospel Writers must have spent an awful loooooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggg time working on writing the Gospels in order to have Jesus fulfill over 300 prophecies from the Old Testament.

  I can only come to the conclusion that you posted without reading the thread. If you had read the thread you would have realized that the number '300' is greatly inflated. Of all of these 'hundreds' of great prophecies forshadowing Jesus, could you at least point me to one that provided any useful information, such as his name, his mother's name, his father's name and occupation, the name of the Empire he would be born under, the name of the ruler who would reign over the region the messiah was born.

  Instead all we have are vague scriptures that don't even claim to be prophecies. And if they are supposed to be prophecies, when you do a bit of research on them you come to find that they aren't talking about the messiah at all. In fact, many of these 'prophecies' are so vague they can apply to Muhammed or Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc.

  Christians will have to do much better than that to convince me that there really are '300 prophecies' fulfilled by Jesus. So far, when looking into them more carefully, they have all fallen like a house of cards. Maybe you can do better than Swedish Chef?

  rem
• 

  SwedishChef

  Damascus

  The most ancient of Oriental cities; the capital of Syria (Isa. 7:8; 17:3); situated about 133 miles to the north of Jerusalem. Its modern name is Esh-Sham; i.e., "the East."
  The situation of this city is said to be the most beautiful of all Western Asia. It is mentioned among the conquests of the Egyptian king Thothmes III. (B.C. 1500), and in the Amarna tablets (B.C. 1400).
  It is first mentioned in Scripture in connection with Abraham's victory over the confederate kings under Chedorlaomer (Gen. 14:15). It was the native place of Abraham's steward (15:2). It is not again noticed till the time of David, when "the Syrians of Damascus came to succour Hadadezer" (q.v.), 2 Sam. 8:5; 1 Chr. 18:5. In the reign of Solomon, Rezon became leader of a band who revolted from Hadadezer (1 Kings 11:23), and betaking themselves to Damascus, settled there and made their leader king. There was a long war, with varying success, between the Israelites and Syrians, who at a later period became allies of Israel against Judah (2 Kings 15:37).
  The Syrians were at length subdued by the Assyrians, the city of Damascus was taken and destroyed, and the inhabitants carried captive into Assyria (2 Kings 16:7-9; comp. Isa. 7:8). In this, prophecy was fulfilled (Isa. 17:1; Amos 1:4; Jer. 49:24). The kingdom of Syria remained a province of Assyria till the capture of Nineveh by the Medes (B.C. 625), when it fell under the conquerors. After passing through various vicissitudes, Syria was invaded by the Romans (B.C. 64), and Damascus became the seat of the government of the province. In A.D. 37 Aretas, the king of Arabia, became master of Damascus, having driven back Herod Antipas.
  This city is memorable as the scene of Saul's conversion (Acts 9:1-25). The street called "Straight," in which Judas lived, in whose house Saul was found by Ananias, is known by the name Sultany, or "Queen's Street." It is the principal street of the city. Paul visited Damascus again on his return from Arabia (Gal. 1:16, 17). Christianity was planted here as a centre (Acts 9:20), from which it spread to the surrounding regions.
  In A.D. 634 Damascus was conquered by the growing Mohammedan power. In A.D. 1516 it fell under the dominion of the Turks, its present rulers. It is now the largest city in Asiatic Turkey. Christianity has again found a firm footing within its walls.
• 

  SwedishChef

  Admittedly, I am not very familiar with Hazor, but from what I gather, this ancient city was destroyed a long time ago.
• 

  AlanF

  SwedishChef, I have to laugh at the way you ignored various comments about the "circle of the earth" business from Isaiah 40:22. This scripture, combined with a few others, shows precisely the opposite of what folks like you claim: Bible writers most certainly viewed the earth as a flat, circular structure surrounded by a huge ocean, with mankind living in the middle.

  This is easy to prove. First, the Hebrew word translated "circle" in Isaiah 40:22 is derived from a root that means "to dance in a circle". No hint of sphericity there, although some apologists claim that the word can also mean "sphere" (I have yet to see them give any examples, since there are none in the Old Testament). Further, that word always refers to some sort of circular structure in the OT, never to anything remotely spherical. And as rem pointed out, if the writer of Isaiah had truly wanted to refer to 'the sphere of the earth', he had a perfectly good word at hand to do so.

  Next consider the image conjured up by Daniel's description of a huge tree in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel 4). Dan. 4:10 states that the tree was in the center of the earth. Now, a spherical earth would have no center on its surface, but a flat, circular earth certainly would. Dan. 4:11 states that the tree "was visible to the extremity of the whole earth." (NWT) That could only be true of a circular earth, not a spherical one. So Daniel paints a picture of a flat, circular earth with the Middle East at the center.

  Then we have the account in Matthew 4 where the devil is said to have taken Jesus to the top of a high mountain where he showed him the splendor of all the kingdoms of the earth. While commentators understand that this was a vision, not a physical transport, the picture given to the reader is consistent with that given in Daniel 4, namely, of a flat earth in which everything on it could be viewed if the viewer attained sufficient altitude.

  If this picture of a flat, circular earth is not what the Bible writers had in mind, then why did they portray it this way? Why do they never portray the earth as it actually is?

  There are a number of other biblical references that suggest a flat, fixed earth, but not even one that suggests that the earth might not be flat.

  It will be interesting to see how you deal with the above facts.

  AlanF
• 

  rem

  SC,

  Isaiah 17An Oracle Against Damascus
  
  1 An oracle concerning Damascus:
  
  "See, Damascus will no longer be a city
  but will become a heap of ruins.

  This is an unfulfilled prophecy. Damascus is actually one of the few ancient cities that has never been destroyed. Prophecies about ancient cities being destroyed are not very remarkable since so many ancient cities have been destroyed over the years. Note that "capturing" a city (2 Kings 16:9) is not the same as destroying a city so that it is 'no longer a city but a heap of ruins.'

  Again, instead of doing real research, you cut and paste from dishonest sources. You make a mockery of your own faith.

  rem

  p.s. I just had to add this... I thought SC would would get a kick out of this!

  Notice: "Damascus is known to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world."

  http://www.damascus-online.com/damascus.htm

  Edited by - rem on 1 January 2003 17:7:10