How do I know the Bible is True?

by SwedishChef 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

SwedishChef

One of my favorite passages in the Bible is Psalms 22, which is a prophecy about Jesus Christ.

Psalms 22:
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?(1) why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
(2) He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: (3) they pierced my hands and my feet.I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
(4) They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

1. Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
2. Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
3. Matthew 27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
4. Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
SwedishChef

Donkey,
Ever hear of Josephus?
peacefulpete

I apologise for not providing more detail but you are mistaken about the circle=shere thing. The Hebrew language did and does have a word for shere or ball,and it would have been used if it was suggesting the shape of the earth was round. I found this out by reading the arguements of the opposition. The verse in fact was only using a familiar metaphor. We still do today refer to our "circle" of friends, etc. Therefore the writer simply meant the whole land as he knew it. The verse is used eroneously to support the "scientific accuracy" of the Bible. By the way Egyptian,Greek and Chinese educted men knew the earth was sherical at the time this verse was supposed to have been written so the point is mute.It was only during the Dark Ages when Bible literalism suppressed this knowledge did Europe forget.Mythology wherein the earth was supported upon Atlas or beasts were just that Mythology and not reguarded by the educated people as more than religious conceptualizations. The "hanging the earth(ground erets) from nothing" verse is evidentally the result of the writer looking up and seeing no strings above his head. Therefore it was a miracle the ground did not fall to sheol or some place. No evidence of inspiration here.
rem

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Fully Revised, 1982, Vol. 2, page 3
"Although the Hebrews occasionally thought of the earth as spherical (Isa. 40:22), they generally imagined it to be flat (cf. Isa. 42:5; 44:24), poised in space (Job 26:7) or situated on a vast ocean (Ps. 24:2, 136:6), and established on firm foundations (Ps. 104:5) that were sometimes described in terms of pillars (1 S. 2:8; Job 9:6; Ps 75:3 [MT4]) or props (Prov. 8:29; cf. 2 S. 22:16). The WORLD was thought to have four edges or corners (Isa. 11:12; cf. Ezk. 7:2; Job 38:13), but apart from this there was no speculation about the physical shape of the earth. It should be remembered that many of the foregoing descriptions occur in poetic passages and must be evaluated accordingly."
Sounds like the Bible writers really had no idea. Even if you do twist the meaning of the Hebrew word Khoog (or Chug) to mean 'sphere', if you throw out enough different ideas, one is bound to be somewhat correct.
rem
Edited by - rem on 31 December 2002 13:34:21
donkey

Sure I have heard of Josephus. Who was he?
Schoalrs have asserted that the contemporary Jewish General and historian Flavius Josephus is, in fact, Arius Calpurnius Piso. So do we rely on the testimony of one whose own honesty and existence are in question to prove the existence of another?
Josephus was born when? AD37
When did Jesus die? AD33
Josephus in all his writings made possible reference to Jesus how many times? Twice
The first one - the most extensive one - has been widely accepted even by Christian scholars to be a forgery penned after Jospehus' death. The second one:
"But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper and very insolent; he was also of the sect of Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all of the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrim of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus, Antiquities, Book XX, chap. ix, sec. I).
OK. That's it!! So where is the proof that Jesus was who you claim he is?
If you would like me to post lengthy details on this discussion please let me know and I can do so for you.
Jack
rem
Also, there is a Hebrew word for spherical objects. The word is 'kaddur', which translates in English to 'ball' or 'sphere'. There are several Hebrew words for spherical items that use kaddur as a root, such as:
Bulb = kadduron
Ballpoint Pen = et kadduri
Ball-bearing = mesev kadduriyoth
Interestingly, the Hebrew word used for a rotary dial is 'chugah', which has as its root 'chug', which happens to be the word used in the Bible to describe the earth. Notice that a rotary dial is not spherical. Also, in the Bible, the word 'chug' or 'khoog' is used to describe flat circles, such as circuits and compasses.
Another Hebrew word for 'ball' (dure) that is also used in the bible at Isaiah 22:18. This is the only instance and it does not refer to the earth. This is the only word that can honestly be translated as both circle and sphere. This word may be the root for 'kaddur', but I'm not sure.
To say that 'chug' or 'khoog' could mean both circle and sphere is to read a modern biblical interpretation back into the definition of the word. Unfortunately, that's what many apologist sources continue to propogate.
rem
Kingpawn

Swedish Chef,
Who rejoices at being told that he is headed for hell, where he will suffer under the eternal wrath of God?
So you disagree with Eccl. 9:5 which says that the dead "...are conscious of nothing at all...?"
If dead people are unaware of anything, they can't suffer can they?
Besides, to me, the idea of a God that gave us free will is contradicted by this doctrine of hellfire. We freely chose to sin in the Garden of Eden. God says in the OT that "...I am putting before you today blessing and malediction...." There's no hint in there, to me, of eternal punishment; He's saying, there are two paths open to you and you're free to pick (Deut. 11:26-28).
OTOH, if I'm told I'm going to be tormented forever after death (btw, if I live in spirit even though I die in flesh, do I die?) and I try and toe the line because of that threat, I no longer am acting totally free. I am being coerced into "doing the right thing." This is grounds, in America, for declaring a contract null and void, the same as if one party had signed while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Would God use "bullying" tactics to get His followers to act morally? If so, that says a lot (and not complimentarily either) about both God and his "prize" of Heaven.
Second, to me it attributes a vindictive attitude toward Him. ("If you won't live life my way, then the hell with you!") Not that there aren't plenty of times where God is described as angry. Or bloodthirsty (OK, so He had the Israelites kill the native populations of lands they migrated to, but even small children? How the hell could they lead the Israelites into sin afterwards? Young males or women I can see, but small kids!?).
The idea that "His ways are higher than our ways" (Is. 55:8) doesn't cut it for me here. Children look to their parents for examples of how to handle situations, so the parent's actions ought to be analyzable. Shouldn't God's actions be too? A God who hides behind a blanket statement that "you wouldn't understand" isn't being a good example. So, the need to bully people into obeying His rules invalidates His claim to goodness, imo.
On this one issue I side with the Witnesses.
Stan Conroy

How about this gem of Biblical science: Genesis 30:37-39
Jacob displays his knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats.
or
Deuteronomy 14:11-18
To the biblical God, a bat is just an another unclean bird. But I seem to remember learning that a bat is a mammal when I was 5 years old!!
Stan
rem
Psalm 22 16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [1] my hands and my feet.

This sounds like a man being hunted down by a pack of dogs and being bitten by them. I don't see any forshadowing of a crucifixion here. Perhaps you can explain to us why you see this as a prophecy of Jesus' crucifiction. Where in the scripture does it say that this is a prophecy? Where in the scripture does it say anything about the messiah?
Psalm 22 18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
John 19 23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24 "Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing." [1] So this is what the soldiers did.
This doesn't seem to match up. Psalms shows one event: the garments are divided and lots are cast for them. John seems to have gotten confused in his attemt to fulfill this 'prophecy'. He makes it out to be two events:
The soldiers divided up the clothes amongst themselves
The soldiers kept the undergarment separate and cast lots for it only
I'm not sure what the prophetic significance of Psalms 22:18 is anyway. There is nothing in the verse or chapter that refers specifically to the messiah. The scripture does not even describe itself as a prophecy. How can these verses be claimed to be prophecies without selective reverse-engineering by the gospel writers?
Psalm 22

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
What does this have to do with Jesus? Again, there is nothing in the scripture that shows this has anything to do with the messiah or that it's even a prophecy! In any case only Matthew and Mark say that Jesus said these words (which is not extraordinary in itself). Luke and John show Jesus saying completely different things.
Psalm 22 6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD ;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
Still no reference that the person described is the messiah or that this is even a prophecy.
Nothing but extreme intellectual dishonesty could cause someone reading Psalms 22 to believe it was a prophecy forshadowing the Christ. There are many examples of the gospel writers manufacturing fulfilled prophecies from scriptures that had nothing to do with the messiah or prophecy. These are but a few examples.
rem
MYOHNSEPH

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," and, sadly, more often than not, so is truth. (Or should I say, the perception of truth.) None of you folks really believe your going to convince any of the other folks here of anything they don't already believe, do you?

How do I know the Bible is True?

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