Reality check: World less happy about America

by Pathofthorns 91 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Realist

  freeman,

  i think what prevents the US from just taking over kuwait etc. is the public and international opinion as well as international relationships. europe (not to speak about russia and china) is already unhappy with US foreign politics...it would lead to a severe international crisis if the US would act even more agressively.

  the US does their conquering in a way more elegant way...they disguise their actions with putting the mantle of "protecting human rights and freedom" over their actions...why do you think they don't just declare war on iraq? after installing a US friendly regime (which in many cases is not at all respecting human rights) US companies (Oil, american fruit etc.) take over the respective markets. look at south america for a frightning example.
• 

  freeman

  Realist,

  Let me get this straight because sometimes Im a little slow especially before I have had a sufficient amount of coffee. The reason we dont take over oil rich countries such as Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. is because we are afraid some people (the world community) may say bad things about us if we did.

  Is this the same world community that mostly condemns us for our staunch support of Israel? Is this the same world community that did nothing for years and years in Bosnia as an entire people were being systematically cleansed. Remember the little ethnic cleansing thingy they had going on there? Whose lives were we saving again, oh yes Muslims, no wonder they hate us so. Sorry I got side tracked, anyway I am having a hard time understanding this.

  My education is mostly technical so I dont have a whole lot of background on world affairs and economics, but as a freshman I was required to take lots and lots of courses that I didnt think I would ever put to good use. One of the business courses they made me take and that sticks out in my mind was Global Economics. If I recall correctly, Dr. G. made us use the CIAs world fact book to learn about the exports of many nations. (BTW today you can get the CIAs world fact book online for free, pretty useful info)

  Dr. G. made me learn a lot of stuff I thought I would never put to good use, looks like maybe I just found a use because I dont recall Bosnia or for that matter Israel being a big exporter of oil. So Im wondering, exactly what is it that we do get from them, I mean besides grief and a lot of complaining from the world community? Im wondering just when the USA will conquer these nations in an elegant way as you have put it.

  Again, Im no expert on this type of stuff, but I just have a hard time seeing some of the actions the US takes as totally mercenary, perhaps I need more coffee.

  Freeman

  Edited by - freeman on 6 December 2002 9:58:54
• 

  Sara Annie

  This essay was printed after the events of September 11. It remains a favorite of mine, and the whole time I've been reading this thread, it's been on my mind. Read On:

  TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES - editorial from a Canadian news paper
  America: The Good Neighbor.

  Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

  "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these
  countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

  When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

  When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

  The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

  I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American
  Planes?

  Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times -and safely home again.

  You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

  When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

  I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

  Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.

  Stand proud, America!
• 

  Realist

  hello freeman,

  in case of bosnia i have to agree with you. i think this might have been the only true humanitarian mission in US history. at least i can't see an economical aspect there.

  well israel is quite a different case...i might get jump on for sounding like a anti semite...but fact is that the jewish lobby is one of the strongest in the US...just think of the fact that 50% of clinton's staff were jews...kind of gives the reason away why the US supports israel despite the screaming human rights violations committed there. (just as a sidenote...nobody except the arabs of course is critizising the US for supporting israel).

  about the international opinion...of course the US tries not to provoke a conflict with the EU or powerful asian countries. noone could stop the US from taking over the whole middle east... but why threatening trade relationships with allied countries when you can take over the resources of 3rd world countries without any conflict? besides...doesn't the US tell the world how bad it is to occupy a foreign country? what official moral justification would they have (in the eyes of the world but also in the eyes of the US citizens) for such an action? what argument could they give russia or china if these two countries start to occupy places around the world? no question...its way way more effective and brilliant the way the US does it now (perhaps even letting japan, germany and a couple of other fools pay for part of the war).

  SARA,

  thank you for posting this! i was thinking about doing it myself. i got the same article last year right after 9/11...it is hillarious! how ignorant does one have to be to believe this drivel???

  i especially love the part about the

  * airplanes ...hello!?! anyone heard of airbus???

  * the man on the moon...hello!?! it were german technicians who lead the construction of the rocket!

  * the railroads...where the hell does that nonsense come from???

  but the rest is almost equally funny!

  Edited by - realist on 6 December 2002 13:36:16
• 

  Iwasyoungonce

  Realist,

  I have a question,

  just think of the fact that 50% of clinton's staff were jews...kind of gives the reason away why the US supports israel despite the screaming human rights violations committed there.

  Can you back this up with any credible facts? Whom are you refering to in the "jew staff" that have the power to influence Presidental, International, and Congressional policy? It just kinda reminds the of the "Satan is in control" when I hear how the "Jews" have so much power in world events.

  Do you have any facts on Arab programs to help the Isr/Pal conflict. Any Arab led aid work to give the people anything better to do than blow themselves up for money and marterdom?

  I have to say that I do not think that Sara posted dribble. The point of the post is wasted on you.
• 

  Realist

  iwasyoungonce,

  just make a google search and you will find hundreds of pages talking about it...here is the first link 

  that popped up: http://www.libreopinion.com/members/standarteslc/jewishquestion06.html

  What exactly has the lack of arab help to do with imperialistic US policies? 

  The point of is wasted on me? 

  * well then tell me how often the US sends help to europe if there is a natural disaster? 

  never...why not? because it is not required! neither is european help required if there is an 

  earthquake or a hurricane in the US. hope you don't actually want help from nicaragua or any 

  other poverty stricken latin american country. (i guess the money the US industry is squeezing out 

  of these countries is making up for that!) 

  * are you aware of the post WWII situation? 

  the US helped europe because of strong communist parties in france and italy and the high 

  probability of germany getting under control of the communists. it was not to help the 

  europeans but to keep europe an allied force against the russians. 

  * i guess you never heard of Airbus then...i am sorry but i guess i have to inform you that 

  airbus controls now over 50% of the world market. the european airplanes are cheaper, have 

  higher quality, are identical in cocpit desing (less training required) and consume less fuel. 

  * as mentioned above it were mainly german engineers who designed the Apollo rockets 

  (W. von Braun and others). the US had the money and the will to do it (after they had lost the 

  race to put the first satellite into orbit and to put the first man into space). hope you are 

  aware that the US had about 250 million and the largest european state about 65 million people...

  so of course only the US (and russia) had the resources to built that thing. 

  * well if you want to put someone into jail for not joining the vietnam war than thats your problem...

  i would say 95% of the population have realized by now that it was a useless and criminal war. 

  about putting the scandals right there in the window...maybe if the US media wouldn't report all 

  that shit than there would be a slower decay of morals in the glorious USA. 

  * about the railroads...this is simply total nonsense. (by the way....the indian railroads actually 

  need to be renewed...they still have the equipment from the times of english occupation! maybe you can 

  write to bush ...i am sure the generous guy he is he will send the required money!) 

  in conclusion i guess you shoud take some serious history lessons my friend! 

  Realist

  Edited by - realist on 6 December 2002 20:57:27
• 

  outoftheorg

  This puzzles me.

  If Realist and others are so unhappy with the US and its actions. Why don't they take a real stand and and leave this country and move to another that suits their beliefs?

  If the US is so terrible how can they stand to live here and contribute taxes to support this terrible country?

  If there is another country that suits your beliefs as to their conduct on the world scene, even if the living conditions, way of life, freedom etc. are substandard when compared to the US, Wouldn't you be happier there than to stay here and be so negative, unhappy and disturbed about this country?

  I don't get it. Why are you still here?

  Outoftheorg
• 

  back2dafront

  To Freeman I say: Just because someone graduated from Yale does not mean he cannot be a moron. Do you realize how many college graduates are book smart yet have no common sense whatsoever? Common sense tells the average WISE person that we need to be making positive steps FORWARD in the environment issue. And you honestly think the Bush family has no power over a college???!!! C'mon....not to say he didn't get in on his own merits, all I'm saying it's quite possible he didn't too. I would think a Yale/Harvard graduate would have way better communication skills personally....

  To Pathofthorns: THIS:

  If action on the world scene is necessary, then America must do a better job of justifying their actions and explaining their position in a more convincing way. They need to be a team player that respects the world community. Sure we can say "who cares what the world thinks, we are right and so what". But, on the world scene it is very important what others think of you sometimes and you might slide by looking badly on an issue or two, but eventually it will catch up. After all, perception of a country and their perceived position on certain issues is what leads terrorists to choose certain targets to deliver their political messages with maximum force.

  is the most well-thought out, accurate statement I've read so-far. I have nothing to say to that except "AMEN!"

  To bigboi I say in response to this:

  Yet, in these times it is dangerous for any developed, modernized country to sit on it's laurels and think that troublesome situations in the world can be ignored or thought of as far away. We simply cannot afford to do that. The power, security, peace and prestige we enjoy depends on the stability of the world community. That can extend to the third world in due time if we take care of the situations that at present threaten to destabilize the entire world community. With issues like nuclear proliferation, terrorism and the like we need a strong power that is willing to stand up and lead a world effort to deal with these appropiately.

  I understand your point...but...why is the whole Middle East AFRAID of the instability that will beset their region if and when the USA goes to war with Iraq?? From what I've read, the only thing that's beneficial about invading Iraq is getting rid of Sadaam, who is either doing a very good job of hiding his arms or has no arms at all. If he is booted, the threat is gone (until his family takes over) AND the whole region is in turmoil as a result..??? I'm not a Sadaam fan at ALL, I just hope and pray Bush knows what he's doing by going in there again, and I mean that with all sincerity. If he makes a success out of this, I'll gain a LOT more respect for him.

  Outoftheorg,

  You pose a very valid statement. I've heard several people comment on how they feel "mis-represented" by living in America and supporting a system they feel is corrupt. Personally, there are a few things that have "tied me down" to living in America presently, but if it weren't for those things, I'd be out of here before you could say "why does America have the highest murder per capita rate in the world?" America isn't the only country that enjoys freedom, you know. There are tons of happy, content, well-off people in other countries as well. I'd love to live in Vancouver, Toronto, Amsterdam or Byron Bay Australia for that matter. Just a few places I've visited and/or want to visit. At the same time though, one can live in his country and not be happy with the current regime without having to take criticism for others who don't share the same viewpoints.

  The whole problem w/ America is that the average citizen is not aware of anything but what they see on TV and read in the paper. And that's just the way America wants it's citizens to be. In the dark as to what's really going on, stuck in the same 'ol routine, and to give all their money and patronage to it. Nationalism is a poison, as JT brought out. A powerful poison that clouds ones ability to think and reason for themselves.

  As far as the worlds view of America, it's a poll. And a ruling power wants it's citizens to be happy, and America being the only Superpower, well....imagine having the whole world against you. My experience in France was...interesting. The French don't like Americans very much!!! Why is that? It was sooo weird - I'm a really friendly guy, and seem to be a social "butterfly"....at clubs in France everything was WAY cool until they picked up on my American accent and/or I told them I was American. One girl just looked at me with a disgusted look and simply walked away. My friends who are Canadian said "Jay, you should say you're from Canada!!!!" Go figure. :-P
• 

  outoftheorg

  I appreciated your reply 2dafront. It was respectful and not degrading.

  I want to point out a comment that caught my eye. We all do not want to be needlessly criticised. I see the criticism going both ways. I think it is only natural when one has strong feelings.

  Could the attitude of the French and others towards the US be the result of what they see on their TV and their papers? I think this problem exists where ever we go in this world.

  I agree that the US has done many wrong things. But I also know that all of the other nations have done many wrong things. If they have not it is usually because they don't at this time have the capability to do so. But given the opportunity greed and jealous feelings and the struggle for power and land will show up anywhere if the parties feel capeable of succeeding.

  My point is that I believe that the US is no more guilty of heinous acts than any other country. When I look at it this way I can see several countries that I would live in and be happy with todays conditions. The US is one of them. I see nothing worse here than elswhere.

  Nationalism can be a lethal poison if it is exercised in an extremist manner. Nationalism is like most all other beliefs. If it is miss used It is as dangerous as other evils. If it is used as a means of respect for ones country and acknowledging the good and healthy aspects of ones country it is not a dangerous evil.

  What bothers me the most is that I see extremist feelings if not beliefs regarding this issue. It seems we humans can never let the pendulum settle in the center. We always have to have it far to one side or the other.

  Outoftheorg

  Edited by - outoftheorg on 7 December 2002 20:54:33
• 

  Iwasyoungonce

  I find it amazing how many people talk about Nationalism, which is bad, when so many of the posts I read are about patriotism, which is good. There is a difference.

  One thing that is so overlooked is this very thread. I challenge anyone to post something like this in China. Freedom of speech is not allowed. Islamic supporters talk about America's lack of support towards Islamic rule. It is dismissed as evil. Even when elections are held they are not respected by the West. The reason is the complete void of freedom of relgion. That is a vital thread to a true democracy. IMO until there is much more freedom for all people respect is not something that they deserve. So many here are comming from a desired Theocracy I am chilled at the support for such oppression. I think that Islamic rule shows what it would be like with JW power in charge of the military. And, if they could enforce public policy pacifism would be past tense.

  True, Americans are patriots for the most part. I am proud to be one.

  No, America is not the only Country worth being full of pride towards there are others. In fact where ever you are born you are going to have a passion towards, it is your homeland. America is so often snubed by snobs and I say so what.

  I read all the time in the paper now where the bad US has bombed here and there in the past and that is true. But there were other Countries involved. The world is a dangerous place and I for one am glad to be right were I am.

  3 out of 4 Americans currently support the actions towards Iraq. And Iraqians in the end will be better off than they are now.

  The UN is currently in agreement with the Iraq issue. Support and opinion; That was the big issue first American support, Bush got it. Then it was congress, they have his back. Then the UN, and the vote was 15 to 0. That one made history I beleive. Now it is the public opinion inclusive to whole world. What will be next a poll of how the average Iraqian soldier. Or maybe we should give Sadameds word some real weight. I remeber that fool from Washingtion State going to Iraq and saying IMO "Take Sadam at his word and to not trust Bush." What a dork.

  Wait I got it let the brilliant ones at the WT Headquarters figure out what to do. Ya that is what I need, to go to a KH for that lesson in history. They have that history thing down to a science.