Ray Franz Key Witness?!

by qwerty 121 Replies latest jw friends

  • xenawarrior
    xenawarrior

    WOW

    I don't usually get involved in the debate of this whole thing but feel a need to speak up here.

    Ray Franz supports the WT policy on child abuse.

    This is a very powerful statement Bill and something you couldn't possibly know unless he actually came right out and said it. I highly doubt that is the case. Your statement, IMHO, also borders on slander. What is the purpose in stating this? Do you feel that you will somehow ferret this man out to speak to what YOU have said?

    In my opinion he is covering up for something he does not wish to reveal.

    Key words- in YOUR opinion. That's all it is Bill- your opinion. Again, planting a seed in others' mind that he "might" have something to hide based on nothing but pure conjecture on your part.

    He wrote a book that was dynamic in what it reveals, but his silence regarding abuse causes me to question his ability to stand for what is morally and ethically right.

    So be it. If you wish to question anything about Mr. Franz based on whatever you wish; including something as innocuous as silence- go right ahead. But don't push that on anyone else as though it were fact. You are in the public eye Bill. You are a leader. And being a leader carries with it a great deal of responsibility for the words you speak and their impact on others. And if you don't want that responsibility or cannot carry it, trying to get around it will only hurt you and your cause. You lose a great deal of confidence with statements such as you have made about Mr. Franz. IMHO, it is irresponsible to add voice to your own well earned credibility to plant seeds of doubt about the credibility or the character of another with no facts to back it up.

    OK all you arm chair warriors call him and ask. You want facts but you are too lazy to get them yourselves.

    You're kidding right? Why would I do that? You are telling us that we are "lazy" if we don't call Ray Franz and ask him to answer your allegations? Things YOU think or feelings YOU have about how his behavior might translate to you? Wow. And I'm not real sure I like being called lazy in the first place. It's really not nice at all.

    I do not ask Ray to do anything but use his mouth to acknowledge and support abuse survivors, he flatly refuses to do so.

    And because he flatly refuses to do so- it means that he isn't a friend of silentlambs or supports WTS abuse policies? Sounds like too much black and white thinking to me. Why would he want to work with you? Look what happens if one behaves in a way which might cause you to make nasty determinations about them. Sounds like you want folks to be "for" you and your cause, in a manner you approve of and if they aren't, they are "against" you.

    If an individual is working in their own way towards this cause but do not need any attention for it or even acknowledgement- that doesn't make their efforts invisible or non-existant. You have no way of knowing what Mr. Franz feels about any of this or what he or anyone else may be doing on their own for this very worthy cause.

    I'm with Moe- take a vacation. It sounds to me that you are angry that he has chosen, for whatever reason, not to join the cause in the fashion you want him to. I, for one have lost a great deal of respect for this movement due to the kvetchings of late.

    XW

    Edited by - xenawarrior on 9 October 2002 16:25:34

    Edited by - xenawarrior on 9 October 2002 16:26:6

    Edited by - xenawarrior on 9 October 2002 16:28:14

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Bill, Ray Franz does not get behind ANY MOVEMENTS. He is not interested in attacking the Watchtower but only in educating it's present and potentially future victims. That is what he does and how he does it. I have spoken with Ray about this issue. I have not heard him say anything that suggests he supports the WT policies of not reporting criminals to the authorities or neglecting to get molestation victims needed protection and counseling. YES, as expected he will not joining in support of this movement. That does not mean he has no concern for victims of molestation. Your presentation of his stand is extremely negative. A few weeks ago you attacked Lengtat for not supporting silentlambs and now you attack Ray for the same. As you can see by the response you have received here you are alienating a lot of those who do support this cause by your seeming intolerance for all who do not. This is not the only cause beneficial to XJW's. Ray has done an enormous amount of good in his own way and I believe he should be left alone and spoken of with dignity for the work he has done. As your friend I would like to suggest you back off with this criticism. Perhaps you need to consult more with your associates before taking off on something like this as these last few days have not been productive for the silentlambs cause. This is said with respect for all you have done for the silentlambs, but with deep concern. Jst2laws

  • DJ
    DJ

    Why do you assume that Bill is lying? What if he is right? Ray has done some wonderful writing to help us xjw's, I agree but Ray is also only a man just like Bill.

    It is wrong to simply discredit what Bill said, simply because we do not know otherwise.

    The people who claim that Bill is a god to the lambs are acting as if Ray is their god.

    Would you AGREE to my above suggestion to contact my elderly friend who lives near and is friendly w/ Franz to see what he knows about this?

  • xenawarrior
    xenawarrior

    "Your Honor, will you please instruct the Witness to answer the question?"

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    DJ

    Would you AGREE to my above suggestion to contact my elderly friend who lives near and is friendly w/ Franz to see what he knows about this?

    No, I would not agree. Bill Bowen is, imo, showing signs of megalomania. He is quickly going off the wall. To bother Ray Franz over unsubstantiated allegations would be a travesty. Leave the man alone!

    IW

  • AMNESIAN
    AMNESIAN

    Hawkaw:

    Bill - So he actually has said he presently supports the policy? Well I will take up your offer and phone him Bill - likely tomorrow.

    Like I said though - I really don't care if he wrote the policy or if he doesn't support victims or silentlambs. One only has time for so many causes and to me it's not a big deal if he comes out in support or not.

    Then why are you calling to bother the poor guy, Hawk???
    However, I would take notice and begin to investigate this more if he actually does support WTS policy on child abuse over the years and he still thinks its okay.

    Investigate exactly what and why if you "really don't care???"

    I would just like a "fact" to work from on this seeing you started it.

    "Fact to work from on this" going where for what purpose???

    AMNESIAN - (who gratefully devoured his insider expose yet always puzzles at the adoring credit Ray receives for "helping so many out of the WTS" by writing an expose on its wickedness and hypocrisy only after he was given the boot by the same wicked and hypocritical organization he did his damndest to remain a member of).

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    What is going on? Are we trying to destroy SilentLambs??? I hope not!

    Granted, I did not like the way Bill made vague yet serious accusations toward Ray. However, that does not mean that we need to flame him. It just means that we need to ask for supporting evidence. Same thing applies to the claims of "Satanic Rituals". I have to admit... that's an awful big pill to swallow.

    Bill, please try to avoid the "correct their views" mentality. I shutter at the way it reminds me of the way elders treat JWs. With us or against us thinking only detracts from our common goal... stopping the abuse. Using abuse to stop abuse simply does not work. If someone does not agree with you, so be it. A person does not need to agree with you 100% of the time in order to help you. Find your common goals and leverage them. Everything else if irrelevant.

    If I were to attack every person or organization that did not agree with me, I would spend every waking moment of my life in arguments and debates. Sometimes you just have to let it go and stay focused on your main goal stopping the abuse.

  • Simon
    Simon

    I think personal attacks on Ray are wrong just as personal attacks on Bill are wrong too.

    I think Bill is passionate about his cause and maybe at times needs to back off a little.

    Just my take.

  • MrMoe
    MrMoe

    Hurry, quick, everybody grab your phone, call Ray Franz... well along in years now 80+... call him and drive him crazy and MAKE HIM SEE... no better yet, catch a plane and fly to his house and shake him around a bit...

    Get a grip.

    Normally I butt out, but we are talking about an elderly man. TAKE A VACATION, A DEEP BREATH AND COME TO YOUR SENSES.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Come on Bill...answer my question.....

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

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