Ray Franz Key Witness?! (page 10)

xenawarrior

Is Ray a bad person? I never said that, as the issue of what decision a person chooses to make is often a personal matter.

I think you did Bill:

Ray Franz supports the WT policy on child abuse.

You talk about how abhorrent the WT policy on child abuse is- so what does that make someone who would actually support such a policy? The same. And you stated that Mr. Franz does support the WT policy on child abuse so you have attached him to all of that by association. And falsely at that.

or:

In my opinion he is covering up for something he does not wish to reveal

And what do we tend to believe about those with something to hide? Something they are covering up? Not good people, no? You attached him to this as well, by your own opinion.

Words mean something. You may not have come right out and said "he's a bad person" but it is certainly inferred in your others words by what we believe those things to mean.

Silentlambs is certainly not against Ray Franz we don't care if he wants to support JW abuse survivors or not.

From what I read, it would appear that you do care- ALOT what Mr. Franz want to support and what he chooses not to.

I really wish you could read your own writing Bill and see the contradiction in your own words.

And I'd still like to see some answers to the questions asked of you by Valis and Reborn. Valid questions Bill.

XW

Reborn2002

Pathorthorns said:

You've been hanging around JR Brown to long.

I agree. My sentiments exactly.

Notice how Bill has the time and ability to compose long, verbose posts which never actually address the issues raised?

Issues of concern have been raised AT Bill (no one else, and not the silentlambs as a whole) in these threads:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38277&site=3

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37988&site=3

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38136&site=3

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38318&site=3

He has as of yet to address comments and questions raised by several people on several threads which he contributed to with statements he made.

As Hillary_Step so eloquently pointed out, he wishes to use JW.com as a public notification forum, but he refuses to address very specific inquiries made towards him.

Apparently he is beginning to believe he is above criticism.

Those were excellent comments if you wish to be an evasive, diplomatic politician.

He has as of yet to confirm or deny specific actions he is accused of committing.

We wish Ray as well as all persons could see the need to stand up on this issue

there is no WE. These questions are directed at YOU.

You make accusations against Ray Franz and you have not backed up your allegations.

You are showing yourself to be as slithery and evasive as the very people you claim to be out to condemn for their policies.

IslandWoman

I think it's important to keep Bill Bowen's comments on this thread at the top for now.

IW

Mulan

I guess I could state it another way, I do not understand the Ray Franz cause. It appears to be, leave WT it is bad, try to help others out by reading his book and go to small Bible study groups for the rest of your life. Is the sum total of helping people? to be expressed in helping them to leave WT and harassing those to stay? Isn't that kind of like a JW in reverse?

I had to comment on this. My husband is close friends with a VERY close friend and confidant of Ray's who has told us how Ray feels on the above issue. Bill is mistaken in his take on it. Ray does not encourage people to leave the WT. When people feel adrift, after they have read his books, and left the WTS, and write to him, he may suggest they find or start a small Bible study group to meet with. For the rest of their life? Come on, Bill. Ray fully believes the Bible to be God's word, and it brings him great comfort to read it. So he recommends the same to others. He never harasses those who stay in. He feels it is their business. As has already been pointed out, he is a very old, sick man. If he chooses to not support silentlambs, so be it.

My husband said this to me, to give a little perspective "I believe in cancer research, for all kinds of cancer. I choose NOT to support all of the research organziations. I will support breast cancer research, but it doesn't mean I am against Leukemia research or bone cancer research." It made sense to me.

IslandWoman

Bill Bowen keeps ignoring the questions put to him by Valis and others. He is acting in the same manner as the GB, they too ignore "pesty" questions from pesty people, people who do not agree with them! Answer the questions Bill Bowen. What are you afraid of?

IW

jimbob

I have been reading all these replies, and thought I'd give my two cents. It is quite obvious that Bill is attacking Ray Franz when Ray has about as much obligation to support the Silentlambs movement as does George Bush. I feel very strongly the reason why Bill is so intent on trying to get his support, as well as Reinhard Lengtat's is that these are obviously two prominent individuals in the ex-JW community. Hell, they were once prominent in the regular JW community. I liken it to a business that's starting up. You want to advertise, and of course, the best way to advertise is to get someone well known to speak in your behalf and have them tell you how much they support whatever business you're in. Look what Michael Jordan did for Nike. Granted......this is on a much smaller scale, and Bill certainly isn't going to pay anything monetary to any such individual, but by being able to say that you have the support of the legendary Ray Franz and Reinhard Lengtat, Bill Bowen feels it would do wonders for the Silentlambs movement. Unfortunately, Bill is using negativity to try and coerce these individuals to support him. Bill.....you need to realize this and let it DIE! If Ray Franz decided at this point in his life he was completely wrong and went back to meetings so he could get reinstated because he wanted to become a regular pioneer.......that's his business. Sure we'd probably ridicule, but I think Ray, not anyone else, knows what's in HIS best interests. So please put this to rest!!!!!!!

Edited by - jimbob on 9 October 2002 23:46:8

Edited by - jimbob on 10 October 2002 0:11:1

IslandWoman

Bill Bowen is a son of a bitch! He puts down Ray Franz in the worst way any xJW could put down another, then he hypocritically kisses ass when he sees that his "well" may be drying up.

This is one sick man.

IW

Yadirf

Bill Bowen is ...
one sick man.
IW

I'm amazed that it took so very long for you or anyone else to realize this. I realized as much quite some months back, after I had personally and sincerely attempted to reason with Bill on a particular subject I had challenged him over. Obviously, he hasn't since gotten well.

.

UnDisfellowshipped

Boy, when I first posted on this Thread earlier in the day, I had no idea it was going to become this.

This whole Thread is somewhat disturbing, to say the least.

I have never read any of Ray Franz's Books, although I am sure they have helped TONS of people to be set Free from the Borg.

I didn't get a chance to see Bill's Posts before they were edited, although I have seen a lot of other people Quote them on this Thread.

I don't want to take sides either way, because I have NO IDEA what is the truth in this matter.

However, I do have one hypothetical question:

If I had created, or helped to create a Policy that I KNEW was causing Molesters to go free through the Congregations and RAPE Children, and then later, I leave the Organization, but then I write some Books and expose several WICKED things the Organization has done, but yet, I STILL KNOW that Children are being RAPED because of a Policy I HELPED TO CREATE, and yet, I don't even mention this Policy in my Books, how would you feel about me?

ISN'T CHILD RAPE THE MOST SERIOUS, EVIL, WICKED THING ON EARTH?

It seems to me, that if I had NOT spoken out about the Child Sexual Abuse Policy that I HELPED TO CREATE, that I would be at least GUILTY for all of the future Children who are RAPED!

Any thoughts on this?

qwerty

Well, I never thought may thred would get such a response!

I have not looked at the board since yesteday morning UK time. I certaily did not want this topic to become a slanging match.

Poor Ray I hope he has an answer phone, if this as caused a deluge of phone calls,. he is probably very busy still helping any JW's who may have read his books.

I guess I was foolish in even thinking Ray would want to get involved, he is in poor health and aged, hasn't he done enough in his attempt to make amends to any policies he (may have) helped create since leaving the Borg?

Why shouldn't Bill keep his cards close to his chest? I would not want the WTS gaining any advantage, would you?

Bill all I have to say is............KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

Qwerty

Ray Franz Key Witness?!

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