Topics I’ve Been Pondering On

by JWINQUESTION 109 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Syme


    In regards to your 1st question:

    Wishing for something to be true, doesn't alone it true. It's cruel to see your child die before you do (probably it's the worst thing that can happen in one's life), but it happens. Death is a part of nature as much as life is. Believe if you want in an afterlife, but as far as this life is concerned, death will always be a part of it. Think about this: Most living beings on Earth, die young, long before their age. An octopus gives life to millions of eggs, because the vast majority of them will die almost instantly. Even so, life is so abundant on Earth that it still thrives. But this tells us that the so-called 'miracle' of life is not much of a miracle. However wonderous, it is the most usual and automated procedure that takes place on this planet, for the past 4 billion years, and we are just a part of it.

    As for the 2nd question:

    Why do you connect homosexuality with bearing children? It is completely irrelevant. Homosexuality appears on so many species (check Wikipedia), that you can not rightfully call it "unnatural". The fact that homosexuality does not result in reproduction, does not prevent it from appearing in a lot of species, even in some of our closest ones, like chimpanzees. So, if nature appears to 'accept' homosexuality, how much more should we, as "higher" human species, full of reason and compassion, accept it, and protect those who fall into that category, from discrimination!

    And one other thing: if you accept only sex that results in reproduction, then what should be done about contraception, oral or anal sex, or even masturbation? All these are forms of sexual activity that don't result in reproduction. What should we do? Ban them? If homosexuality is wrong because it "doesn't produce kids", then all the latter activity is wrong too. But that's something that only a religious fanatic (like Talibans) would assume. Not to mention the fact that is a basic human rights question, and that is unethical, and in some cases illegal, to discriminate people on the basis of their sexual orientation.

  • InChristAlone

    First of all, congratulations on reaching out to those outside the organization for answers. This must feel very uncomfortable for you, but you are doing the right thing by asking. As you said, the truth should be able to stand up to anything. There are many very intelligent people here who can answer your questions. Keep asking them. As OneEyedJoe mentioned, is a fabulous resource as it simply quotes Watchtower literature. I would also add to your list. That site contains a higher percentage of people who have/had questions and remained believers in the Bible. Best wishes.

  • abbasgreta

    Christians just love everyone ( -I'm talking about those they meet in their normal daily environments) unconditionally, irrespective of their sexual orientation,addictions,status and habits etc.

    Only Jesus can read hearts and knows all about their souls/personas.

    I did not have this conviction and mind-set as a jw. I was an unforgiving judgmental bigot.

  • jws

    Welcome and congratulations on starting to think about what you've been taught.

    I understand where you're coming from. I was a lot like that. I knew the JWs weren't the true religion, but I was born in and many beliefs were ingrained in my head since childhood. You look at the people outside and some of them scare you. You don't want to end up like that. And while you question the JW religion, you are afraid of what might happen outside of it.

    Yes, there were a lot of good traits they tried to instill in you. Be good to others, forgive others, etc.

    Cursing. Cursing is just words. It's just sounds. Things change. What was terribly offensive years ago is fine now. Even from nation to nation, certain phrases are offensive. There are phrases like spastic that are no big deal in the US, but are seen as very offensive in the UK (2nd most offensive phrase according to a survey). And vice-versa. Words like the C word that women really seem to hate don't seem nearly as bad in the UK. So bad words are relative.

    I don't see them as a big deal. In general, I don't use them much, but I don't sweat it when I do. In the interest of politeness, you have to determine your company. When I do swear, I'm either at home or in the company of people who don't care. In a work environment (particularly an office one) it's inappropriate. But otherwise, I don't see the difference between "sh*t" and "poo". We're talking about the same concept. Why is one word so offensive and another not? Curse or don't. But try not to curse when people will be offended.

    Atheism happens. Strictly speaking, I'm not ruling out the possibility of more intelligent life forms that some might refer to as gods, but I don't see the Bible as the word of one of them. Purely mad-made. But that's your own journey to make or not to make. I started off leaving because I knew the JWs were wrong, but essentially still believing almost everything they did (except regarding their special position). So I tried to sort out what beliefs that I was taught as a JW were biblical and which weren't. It was very confusing. Trinity for example. There are some verses where you could argue Jesus was claiming things only the father could. And others that support the JW view. I put that on hold. I figured Jesus will be our king either way. Is it wrong to be obedient to him or to praise him? I learned about Grace and the view that believing in Jesus was all I needed. But with my JW background, that didn't feel right. So I tried to find balance. I didn't want to go to another church because as a JW we knew all of them had their issues and none of them had the truth either. I tried to come to a personal relationship with God outside of a church. I figured as long as I belived in God, he'd find favor with me.

    But my first big unraveling was the flood. The more I thought about it and looked into it, the more I couldn't believe it. I saw a website that argued that the Hebrew words didn't necessarily mean a global flood, but a local one. That's more believable. But Christian friends told me that no, that coudn't be. The water was over all the tall mountains. Every time I tried to rationalize the Bible with reality, and maybe allow for the fact that the Bible doesn't mean what we thought it did, a Christian insisted I was wrong. Their inflexibility pushed me to examine the bible more closely and accept the possiblity I might have to reject it entirely.

    As JWs we were taught that the Bible was in perfect harmony. That is SO far from the truth. Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in parallel. That is, try to sync up the accounts of what is happening and read how it is told in each book. Do they agree? Is every quote the same? Pay attention to details. Who was Joseph's father? When did the temple curtain rip? Before or after Jesus died? How did the soldiers identify Jesus? Did Judas kiss him or did Jesus identify himself? Was Jarius's daughter already dead or still dying when he came to Jesus for help? Compare the numbers in Ezra 2 with Nehemiah 7. Are they all the same? Did Simon Peter find out Jesus was the messiah not by flesh and blood, but by God himself? Or did his brother tell him? All of these things can't all be right. Either one is true and the other is false. You have to cock your head and squint real hard to make them all line up.

    So I allowed myself to question and I wound up where I'm at. Many people don't wind up where I'm at. Many go on to have very spiritual lives of belief in the Bible. But after being duped by the JWs, I kept exploring and kept my mind open. And this is where I wound up.

    Homosexuality. As others have pointed out, reproducing is not the only reason for marriage. If two people are in love, why question it? It's all about preference. Some guys like a lot of "junk in the trunk". Some guys prefer blondes, others brunettes. Some prefer certain races. What's wrong if a guy prefers other guys? Or a girl other girls? Think about it. The actual acts of most gay sex are the same acts straight people engage in too. And it's OK if straight people do it, but it's wrong when gay people do them? There are some things straight people do that I find much more disturbing. It's up to people to choose what they like, but my tastes find some things like torture sex disgusting (just my own tastes, if you're into it, have at it, but it's not for me). Yet so long as it's a man and a woman, it's OK? Sex is about getting off (and sometimes love and other things). As long as everybody is of legal age, is consenting and nobody who doesn't want to be hurt is getting hurt, why have an issue with how they get off?

    Besides, if you outlaw gay marriage you force gay people to be fornicators. :)

    I don't sweat it. People are so much more than their sex lives. Judge them by the qualities you see, not the ones that go on behind closed doors.

    As for your apology, I don't think you were being harsh. I just think you were presenting your justification (from JWs) of why you feel a certain way. And trying to rationalize it.

    I think deep down, you question that teaching, but you're trying to rationalize what you're supposed to believe.

    As for other questions of sexual conduct, most of those morals are based on religion. If you take away religion as a false concept, you're left with nature. You have urges and a way to fulfull them. I grant you that there is more to it than that. Emotions can develop. And you also run the risk of producing children. So you should be prepared for those outcomes. There are plenty of ways to prevent pregnancy. And I say double-up, triple-up. Do what it takes. Condoms with spermicide, her on birth control, pulling out. Do whatever you can. It sucks being tied to somebody you find out you can't stand because you have a kid together (and that even goes for married people). But there's nothing wrong with sex.

    Just don't hurt people. Emotional attachments can happen and cause pain when one person was just in it for the sex. I tend to only have sex with women I could see myself in a relationship with. That may change the more I find out about them. But I'm not just in it for the one-night stand.

    Welcome. Stick around, read a bit. You're among many who have taken the same journey. Good luck with the process.

  • bigmac

    i must come back to this later--when i ve got more time.

    how do i mark this to find it ?

  • Phizzy

    bigmac, just click on your name, look at Topics Posted On, and you will see this one pop up near the end of the list. There is a pukka way of marking, mentioned on a Thread about it a few months back, but the above is what I do if I cannot find a Thread.


    I can see a lot of me , just prior to my leaving, in the thoughts you express in your opening post. My ideas have changed much since leaving what I refer to as the JW "Bubble of Ignorance".

    I realise now that the whole time I was in I was denied truth, only selective and often erroneous information being fed to me, denied the freedom and even the ability to think, and that many attitudes and fears had been instilled in me by the constant JW Propaganda and Indoctrination.

    Using jgnats illustration, the Pool of water, of chrystal clear truth, can be paddled in to start with.

    We are all here to answer your questions in our own way. None of us are Sages or Authorities in an absolute sense, and you must check what we say for yourself where you doubt, and you must decide what to take on and what to reject. How different from life within JW.Org's Mental Prison !

    Who knows, you may eventually enjoy the freedom to curse when you want, I know I do !

    The whole point is, we are not a group who wants to convert you, or to change you in to anything you do not wish, we will respect you fully, and any choices you may make.

    All we ask, for your own benefit, is that you have all the information and skills you need, (like Critical Thinking etc.), to make sensible, informed choices.

    Good luck on your journey ! we are here to help at any time.


    Been reading through all of your comments and really appreciate all the different information everyone is giving me.

    After reading the comments, I can basically pursue anything that would make me personally happy?

    What if a person found happiness and joy in murdering people or if a school bully found happiness in beating kids people up? Or terrorist found happiness and joy in driving planes through tall buildings? Would it be correct for them to pursue those things?



    Sorry I haven't been responding to posters comments. I found something interesting with what you said. You talked about how homosexuality appears in the animal kingdom.

    I was watching a show on Discovery Planet on how some different animal species will kill and eat their young babies after birth.

    So would it be natural if a human parent kill and eat their babies just how homosexuality is okay among the human species?

  • OneEyedJoe

    What if a person found happiness and joy in murdering people or if a school bully found happiness in beating kids people up? Or terrorist found happiness and joy in driving planes through tall buildings? Would it be correct for them to pursue those things?

    Careful, now. Comparing what gays do (I'm assuming that's what you're still speaking in reference to) to murder or acts of terrorism is likely to get you some pretty negative response.

    Your rights end where another's begin. Your right to persue happiness ends when it would interfere with someone else's right to life. I.e. you don't get to kill people because it makes you happy. Obviously there are complex situations that you can get into, but in most cases it's pretty cut and dry. If two people want to have sex, they should go for it. If one person wants to have sex with someone else, and the other person doesn't want to do it, no dice.



    So what if a persons being gay interferes emotionally or physically on a parent or loved one?

    Sorry, I don't mean to offend people with my posts. I just so have many questions and writing them to get peoples responses.

    If anyone was offended, my apologies. If you are offended, just let me know. Just know that I'm just pouring these questions on the top of my head on this thread since I'm encouraged to question.

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