Honesty, what is a "morally upright" life?
Topics Ive Been Pondering On
Thanks for your responses. It is really making me think a lot harder. I'll get back to you soon. Just trying to multi-task doing this while working in the office.
Were you a former JW?
On the topic of research, I would reccommend jwfacts.com
If you're like me, you'll start out reading it and verifying that all the references are honest and fair. After a while you'll start to trust the site. I was unable to find anything that was unfair or in any way false.
Good luck on your journey towards real truth.
I'm 27 and finished college at 23 but miss it and wouldn't mind going back for degrees in things that actually interest me. You are never too old! More than half of my graduating class were over age 30. Anyway, some background, I was a JW from 3rd grade unitl age 24 when I stopped attending after New Light about the "generation." The reasoning they had for New Light didn't make logical sense to me. I had already been questioning the logic surrounding the non-acceptance of blood transfusions. I decided exactly like you that if it's the Truth, then it can withstand ANY scrutiny! I took a year off to research specific JW doctrine and what I concluded about blood, 1914, 1975, etc convinced me not to waste any more precious time with the organization.
Keep asking questions and seeking answers! Belief sytems play a large role in your psyche and subsequently your actions and decisions for the rest of your life. If you have never truly scrutinized your belief systems and have only blindly gone with the wind with them, then you might live the rest of your life fully formed by an organization you don't want to bother questioning. Never stop seeking knowledge. In fact I advise you to take a Technical Communications course in college and pay attention to Logical Fallacies. You will be able to critically analyze each paragraph in a Watchtower mag and see how often they commit these fallacies!
Also as a side note regarding homosexuality: Homosexuality has been observed in the animal kingdom across hundreds of different species and even in long-term homosexual bonds between two mammals that lasts their entire life-time! It is a byproduct of creation/evolution/natural selection/whatever you want to call it. How could a God condemn the actions of the animals/humans he created when he instills these behaviors? Also combine the points made previously about STD's between straight people, and the points about pro-creation not being of any concern or necessity in even married JW couples.
I left the org almost 20 years ago. I left it because of all the false prophesies. They claim they Keep getting them from Gdf, but not one has ever come true.
Yes I learned much about God from the JW's. I learned more since I left, and I am very strong for Jehovah. As to the gays people. I am stright, but I did a lot of research about them. They are sinners. We are all sinners. No one can say, "Well, my sin is less than your sin." All sin is falling short of the mark.Here is a strange thing I found: Many animals are gay. Some stay together for life...you have a computer, check it out..."Animals are homosexual." So this human homosexual thing is an animal thing.
Over the years here is where that led me: The trees in the bible are all symbolic. So why are the two trees in the garden not symbolic? Who made claim they were not? Read genesis 3:15. God is talking to Satan about what he did with his seed. Genesis 3”15 was written in Hebrew, but, the word for seed was written in Greek. The writers often shifted back, and forth like that. The word was, “Sperma.” It means, child, offspring, and seed from a male. If you go to genesis 5, this shows the life of Adam. You will see his first child was Seth…where is Cain, and Able? If I could write several pages here, I could prove to you Adam, and Eve did not eat a fruit. The human family ages, and dies because it is mixed with a high , almost man like animal, ( the angels cast down) seed. We have many other things we get from that seed besides homosexuality. Do you know why we kiss on the lips? Yes, it is an animal thing. (dogs.) many think their dog is kissing them when they lick their face…not so…this is from the wolf, were all dogs are from. The wolf hunts, and kills something, and eats it where it died. He then goes back to its camp, or whatever they call it, and others smell it on them. Other dogs will now lick the face of the dog who ate the kill. What the dog is saying, “Please throw up some of it so I can eat it.”
Sin is sin. During the 1,000 year rule of Jesus, we will all become normal. Gay people, like all other sinners, are going to have to work at putting sin aside. Jesus said, “You could not be good if you wanted to.” So I assume he was speaking about all of us in this system of things.
Here is the difference between people; We are all bad, but some are evil.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
As a "still-in" witness and MS, I have found the journey that we take once our "eyes have been opened" to the "truth about the truth", is a varied one.
Think of it as a roller coaster...ups and downs...
I can see that I am going through variations of "grieving"...you know, Denial, Anger, Acceptance etc.....
Our whole life and foundations are being questioned, so it is no wonder that this whole process is a trying one.
Keep true to your real personality, and really allow the "real" you to develop and shine.
It wont happen overnight....
Welcome Jwin it looks like a lot of people are happy you've joined (for a little while or longer).
I found this site 48 years after I left with my wife because I got online to see how the JW;'s were doing. I landed on a couple of different Ex sites and nothing has changed except it's gotten worse.
So let me approach this from a different direction did I make the right decision?
I passed up college and pioneered where the need was great. A year or two later I had mentally worked out that the WTBTS did not have the truth. I told my pioneer partner and she agreed. We left the area we were pioneering in and began anew. I was around 25 it took all of five years to learn how to live in the real world, develop practical and business sense. By then I did not believe in God or the bible just as I didn't believe in other gods and their holy books.
What I learned was that if there was a god it's nature language is silence and everything that followed were just bad translations of that silence. I know my days are numbered. I expect nothing when I pass away. It doesn't trouble me. I have been fortunate to be married to my wonderful ex pioneer partner for 50 years. My son, his wife and my grandkids live a mile away. We all went in together and bought a horse farm two months ago. I visit sit on their covered porch look at the mountains and watch the horse do horse stuff. Two of them appear gay...hummmmm.
Stay well, think things through, alway learn new things. Make a this world a better place when you leave it.
JWINQUESTION. You're doing fine! As I said in my earlier post, you have expressed yourself carefully and respectfully. You'll see there is no single type of response on this forum. Some will cheer positively and unconditionally at your comments, others will tactfully respond to the parts of your OP that they "identify" with and still others will be blunter in response to your OP. By far the overwhelming majority will be happy that you are showing courage in putting yourself out here.
All of us humans are just trying to do the best we can. My motto is, I can always do better next time - especially after hearing feedback on how I have affected others. I speak as a third-generation JW whose maternal grandparents were converted to the organization in the 1920s (as Bible Students) and whose paternal grandparents were converted to the organization in the 1930s. Despite being surrounded by well-adjusted heterosexual Witness family members, I realized I was bent in my pre-school years. Little wonder both my lovely JW parents said, "Don't blame us!" That was many decades ago and while I remain as bent as ever, I have moved on from the fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) of my upbringing (yet I acknowledge my JW parents were the best and I never doubted my love for them or their love for me).
To me, you do raise some incredibly naive questions about human sexuality - but that is hardly surprising, given your JW background. And it is definitely no sin to be naive - in fact, it can be endearing...up to a point .
What stands out is your ability to empathize and realize you may not have completely thought through your beliefs on human morality. You would have been in your element in 19th Century Britain where upstanding straight men contracted syphillis from frequenting brothels and died miserable, drawn out and highly incapacitating deaths. I doubt you would have concluded that made heterosexuality "wrong" or "unclean". Although you may have had some sage advice about men needing to park horse and buggy in the garage at home and not elsewhere.
To me, morality is not about sex (per se) but about how people treat each other in their everyday ordinary lives. Frankly, what adults choose to do in the privacy of their dwellings is no fit place for other adults to poke their noses. People can whip themselves into some thing of self-righteous lather over all manner of sexual behaviour but never feel compelled to speak out against the abysmal ways people treat and mistreat each other (as in physical and verbal violence).
Welcome, glad you found us, you are asking some good questions.
Anyway, a lot of the orgs policies on shunning, changing new light and false prophecies have really bugged me. But at the same time, there were IMO some good teachings that they tried to instill in us that I still try to practice. For example, like avoiding cursing and sexual immorality. Even though I disagree with some of the orgs policies, I wouldn’t’ curse them out of bad will. I know that everything will be exposed in the end.
How? They have been shunning people for fifty years. My family (six siblings) has been split apart for forty years, my parents died estranged from some of us. How do you think will this be exposed?
It is just when I see many (not all) posters and ex JW’s curse, I wonder is this how I am going to end up like after I leave.
That's entirely up to you, no one is going to make you curse. FYI, many active JWs curse, they just don't do it at the kingdom hall
I’ve noticed a lot of former JW’s have become either Atheists or Agnostics. To be honest, I can’t see accept those beliefs either.
No one will force you to be an Athiest. If you have the courage to consider all the facts, and the honesty to accept where that leads you, then yes, that might be where you end up. If you want to be a believer no matter what the facts are, no one can or would stop you. If you don't want your faith challenged, then I suggest not reading those types of threads. Didn't you say that truth stands up to scrutiny?
Let’s say I had a son who was only a baby that died a six months, am I wrong to believe that I would see him or do I need to accept the cold reality that I never will?
You are not wrong to want to see your baby again, but wishing something doesn't make it true, it either is true or it isn't. Again, this is entirely your choice, many ex JWs still believe in God. But if you still believed 100%, you wouldn't be asking this question. If you believe it, own it, if you don't, then explore that and see where it takes you.
Because I hear Atheists say live your life to the full now and do what makes you happy but what about if we were talking about a baby or a young child that died, even a young adult who didn’t even began to live their life?
It's a tragedy, no question, bad things happen. If it makes you feel better to believe something will be made right in the hereafter, or after Armageddon, then that is you choice, just know that it is your need to believe that is behind your belief.
Regarding the homosexuality issue, if it were okay then why can’t two people of the same sex produce a child?
Is it wrong then for people who are past child bearing years to have sex? How about if they are using birth control? Trust me, if you were gay, you would figure this out. Some people are born gay. For you, who are not dealing with it, to say it's wrong, means you are saying that other people should live their life without sex and without the possibility of finding a life partner. It's not actually any of your business to decide how others live their lives, as long as they aren't affecting you.
And after reading a recent 2014 article (Not a JW or religious article) about gay sex, it states that gay sex has been leading to increasing sexual diseases even to those who use protection. It seems that most people on here are okay with gay marriage. Of course, it is also wrong for me to hear on news how some anti-gay extremists go to far and kill off or murder gay people. That is horrible and something that makes me sick to the stomach to hear gay people being murdered like that. However, I am the kind of person who wouldn’t condone the practice not just because of religious issues but the increasing related diseases that has been associated with gay sex.
I haven't seen the article, can you post a link? I have a hard time visualizing how you would be impacted if you are careful with your choice of sexual partner, practice safe sex, don't use drugs and are not promiscuous.
Anyway sorry for my somewhat jangled post. I appreciate any who can chime in on the topics I mentioned above
As I said, you are asking good questions. Don't stop asking questions, it's a good thing. As JWs we were not allowed to ask questions, we were told to just believe in the GB. This was not a good thing. Don't believe anything until you investigate, ask questions and confirm.