Topics I’ve Been Pondering On

by JWINQUESTION 109 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • MadGiant

    "I’ve noticed a lot of former JW’s have become either Atheists or Agnostics. To be honest, I can’t see accept those beliefs either. Let’s say I had a son who was only a baby that died a six months, am I wrong to believe that I would see him or do I need to accept the cold reality that I never will?" -


    I realize what it means to test my beliefs against the dictates of reality, and to correct them when nature tells me I’m wrong. I bear no personal stake in any of the beliefs I hold, but simply in the rational assurance that whatever beliefs I do hold are indeed correspondent with reality. I therefore measure my beliefs through a clear set of epistemic rules, and I make no exceptions under any context. That’s what it takes to make new discoveries and build the knowledge of humanity.



    "Regarding the homosexuality issue, if it were okay then why can’t two people of the same sex produce a child? And after reading a recent 2014 article (Not a JW or religious article) about gay sex, it states that gay sex has been leading to increasing sexual diseases even to those who use protection." -


    Well, using your own logic, heterosexual couples should be tested for infertility before they get married. In addition, if both proved to be fertile (no point getting married otherwise), they should having kids within the first 5 years of marriage. If I understood your statement, marriage is only to have kids.

    STD's are more about education that anything else. And do to the influence of religion, debate on sex education in schools still ongoing, half of all mothers of sexually active teenagers mistakenly believe that their children are still virgins. The U.S. has one of the highest rates of STDs among adolescents and the highest teen pregnancy rate in the developed world.

    And it gets worst because, the U.S. government promotes abstinence-only sex education in schools even though there is no evidence that it is effective. And abstinence-only programs do not teach about contraception or condoms except to report failure rates that are often exaggerated. Just 69% of schools even have a policy about sex education of any kind and, of those, only 65% teach about contraception and condoms. Critics of comprehensive sex ed say teaching kids about contraception sends "mixed messages" and may make young people take more sexual risks. Even though research shows no such link; in fact, the evidence proves the opposite.

    Abstinence-only programs show no evidence of delaying a young person's first sexual intercourse or of reducing the frequency of sexual intercourse.

    The Bible states in Genesis that marriage is between a man and his mutated rib, which is as painful as it sounds, but at least the Constitution allows it.

    In time, God expands this beautiful concept into a union between a man, his swinging wife, and her abused servant. Under His divine plan, marriage blossoms into a sacred contract between a rich rapist and his victim, a king and 700 fine, foxy ladies, a man and his brother's widow, and occasionally a man and his own daughters when the wine is alright.

    Religion view sex outside of marriage as morally wrong, or sex for non-procreative reasons as wrong. Gay sex is a sin, oral sex is a sin, pornography is a sin, and anything fun or different, or not missionary in the dark for the purpose of having a baby, is wrong. There's no good reason for it, of course, and the best answer you may get is that the Bible, or whatever religious text, speaks against it.

    Well, the Bible warns against wearing clothes of mingled fabric states, owning slaves, having contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness, working on the Sabbath or eating shellfish, so let's not pick and choose what words of "God" we can follow and which we can ignore.

    The fact is, sex makes people uncomfortable in much of Western society because we've demonized it.


  • DesirousOfChange

    I applaud you for one of the most meaningful first posts in a long time. Perhaps that is because I relate to it so much. It sounds like where I was 3 or 4 years ago. I too was scared sh!tless to sign up and post on this site. (Doesn't just that alone tell you that something is wrong?)

    I was able to block out all of the changes (1975; 1995; etc) for many years but the "overlap" New Lite was and is laughable. Now the power grab of the GB being the sole members of the F&DS. I guess they got tired of all the advise they were getting from the new "annointed ones" and had to silence them.

    But the biggest issue was coming to the realization that there is no hocus-pocus Holy Spirit involvement directing things in this Organization. God wouldn't work the the ways that the WTS does. I had been deceived for decades and cheated out of the best years of my life. So had my parents. And grandparents. And my children were facing the same thing if they plodded along as uneducated JWs.

    The choices you make henceforth are STILL your choices.

    Cuss or don't cuss. Many people (NOT just JWs) won't like your profanity if that's what you choose.

    Screw around or don't screw around. Gay, straight, or bi. Many people (NOT just JWs) won't really approve of your promiscuous lifestyle, but most won't totally shun you for it. Most will respect that it's your right to choose. They just might not have you over for dinner or drinks.

    Believe what you want. Most people won't care and will respect your choices. I'm warning you though that this is the tough issue!! Once you discover that there is one chink in the JW armor (doctrine) the Pandora's Box is open and you will find that now you must question and examine them all, because if they have lied to you about ONE thing, they may have lied to you about EVERYTHING.

    Whether you remain a "Christian" or become agnostic, or even move to atheism, most people won't care. They'll respect that it is also YOUR decision or your choice in life. A big turning point is coming to realize that what we BELIEVE doesn't make it true. I truly believed that JWs were God's only channel of communication -- the channel to Jehovah God. I now know that BELIEVING that, didn't make it so.

    Good luck to you.

    Prepare yourself for the ride. It's one hell of a roller coaster.

    Remember, it too was YOUR CHOICE to take the RED PILL!


  • jgnat

    I agree that truth stands on its own and can be tested.

    I typically avoid dissuading people from risky behaviors such as smoking, extreme sporting, driving, and unprotected sex. Some people simply have a higher thresshold for risk than I do. Besides, many people who enjoy these activities are aware of the risks and take appropriate precautions.

  • sloppyjoe2

    I was once in your shoes as many were and decided I would just keep going in the organizaiton knowing it had flaws. Here is the problem I ran into. As time goes on the organization gets dumber and dumber. Soon you start seeing just how ridiculous things are and how they will change anything they want to advance their agenda. I use the example of the overlapping generatioin. Their agenda is to keep everyone belieiving the end is very close. It's obvious this teaching is actually stupid, but you can't help but see it for what it is. Then you'll have conversations with JWs that eat it up and just believe no matter what they are told. Eventually you start realizing you are wasting your time and your life at meetings, field service, and whatever else because it actually accomplishes nothing for you. I actually started researching beliefs of the witnesses and realized using the bible, the resurrecton idea was invalid, the 144,000 was invalid, and really you can make a case for and against the trinity using the bible. Anyone can do as they please and continue on in the org, for me I realized I was wasting my own valuable time to "exist" in the organization. Sure there are great, nice people in the org but guess what, there are great nice people in every religion, as well as great nice people that are agnostic and atheist. My advice would be to do what makes you happy. If that means staying as witness then be happy.


    Thank you for all the good points guys and gals. I'm starting to understand a lot more now.

    One of the biggest things I wish I could've done sooner was go to college. My sister and mom, despite being strong JW's, encouraged me to go to college. But I listened to my two older brothers who were elders to pursue the ministry.

    Thanks again for all your comments! I read all of them so far and will try to respond to them.
    So I worked right after high school. But after one year I realized I can't be working for $13.00 an hour all my life. So I started at a two year school and got my Associates recently and now at a 4 year UNI. I'm 24 and should be done by 26 or 27 since I'm still working and saving living at my parent's house (custom for Asian families until they get married. Also good since I can help them out with bills and chores around the house since I owe them alot for raising me with love as child). I feel like I'll be old when I graduate at 26 but better late than never. Just got to make the best out of the prior (poor) decision I made.

    Also in school, I was heavily involved with a Hip-Hop Dance/Choreo group for Asian and Asian-American students. I enjoyed helping and teaching freshmen and sophomores Hip-Hop dance, like popping, basic breaking, locking, tutting (sorry for all you non-dancers out there). But at the same time, I was torn cause I felt I was associating too much with worldly people. If I could go back, I would've pursued more with that group. I still dance/choreo though when I want to let the creative juices and musicality flow.

  • steve2

    Hi JWINQUESTION you express yourself in a considerate and respectful manner and I do hear your concerns.

    Who knows where your clear-thinking mind will take you? You already know the organization's claims do not all stack up. You perhaps have tried to make yourself simply "accept" that uncomforting realization - but if it were possible to silence doubts, humankind would still be living in caves.

    It takes courage to face what your mind presents to you. I agree with jgnat: The issues over whether you'll gravitate towards agnosticism or athiesm or anything else are side issues. The bears in the woods are a poor reason to ignore the poisonous spiders in your cupboards and under the rugs.

    I get what you say about the value of religion in consoling grieving people who have lost loved ones. But there is another part of you that wants to know is the consolation based on a fact-based belief system or on very human wishful thinking.

    Face your fears because runnning away from them gives them far more power than they deserve. To the best of your current ability, relish the opportunity to develop further your clear and rational thinking. There is way too much fear in the world - and frankly, too little courageous-minded clear thinking. Best!


    As a man who, among MANY other things, happens to be gay, I have a few points to make. First of all, gay people aren't what they 'do', it's who they ARE. I was attracted to other males at age 12, long before I 'did' anything with another man. It seems to a lot of Christians see a gay couple and IMMEDIATELY start obsessing about 'what they do in bed', but when they see a straight couple, do they right away think 'what do they do in the bedroom'??? Gay people lead varied and productive lives, so why obsess only about their sex life?? As for gay marriage, which is more harmful to the 'traditional marriage', same -sex marriage or heterosexual divorce especially when children are involved?? Why can a straight triple murderer in prison get Married with no objections from the anti-gay -marriage crowd, yet when two loving gay adults want to exact same right they are denied it. The ability to have offspring has NOTHING to do with having the right to get married. Last time I looked, straight couples aren't required to take a 'fertility test' before being allowed to marry. The ultimate point is that the US Constitution doesn't allow for one set of laws for heterosexuals and a different set of laws for homosexuals. Isn't one of our founding principles the phrase: 'ALL men ( and women) are created EQUAL'?? Please think about these points the next time you decide to criticize gay people who only want the same rights as everybody else.

  • OnTheWayOut

    Hello. It appears you were on this forum awhile before asking your question. Let me welcome you.

    there were IMO some good teachings that they tried to instill in us that I still try to practice. For example, like avoiding cursing and sexual immorality.

    That's your life and your choices. After leaving WTS and studying religious values, some have made other choices. While I might disagree and say that I don't apply religious standards as to whether people are good or bad, that is your choice. I would say that plenty of religions that are not seen as dangerous mind-control cults are also applying similar rules on cursing and sexual conduct. I have met plenty of Christians, Jews, others who do not curse and plenty of people from religious and non-religious backgrounds who have similar sexual conduct rules upon themself.

    Even though I disagree with some of the orgs policies, I wouldn’t’ curse them out of bad will. I know that everything will be exposed in the end.

    I hope you do realize that you belong to an organization that does all it can to bash virtually all outside organizations. College, other religions, social organizations, political organizations, etc. etc. etc. If it's just the curse words themselves, then I guess your opinion is that what they do is okay and we can do the same about them without 4-letter words. WELL- just look past that and try to understand why some are so frustrated that Watchtower tells their children, grandchildren, parents, siblings to shun them.

    It is just when I see many (not all) posters and ex JW’s curse, I wonder is this how I am going to end up like after I leave.

    I doubt that you personally will end up in one-night stands or having affairs with married people. I also doubt you will start using 4-letter words in your regular conversations. I do believe that many people over-use such words, but I have learned that they are just words and I have learned to stop judging people as JW's did, so I don't hold that against others. I feel free to use such words but probably use them quite a bit less often than many who were never serious "Christians" (or other religious beliefs) and even less than those who have been serious in their beliefs.

    I’ve noticed a lot of former JW’s have become either Atheists or Agnostics. To be honest, I can’t see accept those beliefs either. Let’s say I had a son who was only a baby that died a six months, am I wrong to believe that I would see him or do I need to accept the cold reality that I never will?

    You certainly are torn here. It sounds like you want to know if you MUST face reality or live in a fantasy. You are free to do as you want again. But why would you phrase it so? Are you asking us if you would become an atheist if you left WTS? Are you that insecure in your belief in God? Believe what you want. If you ever want to examine the issues instead of just not accepting uncomfortable beliefs, feel free to do that also.

    Your thoughts on homosexuality fit right in with many Christians (such as the Westboro Baptist Church). But if the standard for two people to have sex is to only produce a child, then that standard excludes contraception or even attempting to use the rythm method to avoid having children. Married couples would either have to keep having children also, or stop having relations.

    Sexually transmitted diseases happen between straight and gay people. I would say that much of this could be avoided with simple contraception. But it shouldn't affect you if you are in a relationship with your spouse only. A closed-minded person like you should be happy if gay people are getting each other sick. However, you must be careful not to have sex too often in your exclusive relationship as having too many children might also introduce more disease into the world. You don't want to be accused of the same things you are putting upon others.

    So I guess the bottom line is that you condemn others unless they are married to a person of the opposite sex and having sex only to produce children and avoiding certain words at all times, and you believe that hope should always be given primary importance even above reality. Good luck with such a standard.

    Otherwise, if you are not offended to read my comments, see ya around the threads. Again, Welcome.



    I apologize if I was offensive at all in my post towards gays. I was being as tactful as I can be while getting my point across. Anybody else think I was too harsh on my post on gay people?



    I'm not offended by your comments. Just trying to take in all the posts. Thanks for your input.

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