My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • losingit

    Hi FW!

    I really enjoy reading all of your posts about your interactions with jws-- both about these sisters and your family. I just wonder, why do you sit down with them and listen to their BS?

    I ask, not as a form of criticism, but really bc I want to understand what you are learning and getting from these interactions with these jw ladies.

    For example, I recently had a long emotional conversation with my ex. He did most of the talking, but I let him go off on me for a reason-- I wanted to dissect his perspective and his reasoning . Not bc I believe him, but bc he uses certain tactics when he speaks to me , and I want to be able to identify them n future conversations with other people.

  • Ding

    Don't let her get away with asking you questions.

    She's the one who supposedly has the truth.

    Ask her questions and let her come up with answers.

    Whatever she says, be puzzled by her response and keep on asking questions.

  • LisaRose

    You are doing well with her, at least as well as you can do with a hardcore JW.

    I have heard the term "cult personality" a lot here in JWN. It thinking about my mother, I think our relationship was strained because every time she talked to me she was looking for signs that I was straying from the fold, which I was. She obsessed on all her children, especially one that had left. It occurs to me now she was going into cult mode every time we talked, it ruined our relationship, she was so focused on trying to find evidence if my lack of faith, and come up with a way to fix me, she didn't enjoy the relationship we had, plus it was very uncomfortable for me, no one likes to be criticised and picked apart. How sad that even before I left, the religion kept us apart, and she has now passed away, yet another family ruined.

    Just a thought, a Witness on a study is probably in full cult mode as well, possibly you could try to connect with her on another level, although she seems pretty determined.

  • wannabefree

    Next week, she wants to talk about John 14:6, where Christ says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one gets to the Father, but by me."

    Maybe someone here can tell me how the JW's have warped this idea, and help me be prepared for her next show.

    Basically ... how I would have tried to reason with someone is jump around with scriptures backing up ... Jesus is "the truth" in the sense that he is the faithful and true witness, he is the Amen, the fulfillment of all of God's promises, all blessings for mankind are made true through him. There are other things referred to in the Bible as true or truth without referring specifically to Jesus ... once you get someone to agree with this kind of reasoning you can probably get them to at lease understand and tolerate the JW use of being in "the Truth®" .... once you start accepting enough of this kind of reasoning you can become indoctrinated.

  • blondie

    That 1981 application of Acts 17:10,11 is the only place I ever found that interpretation shortly after the Great Apostasy and Ray Franz. The WTS was running scared.

    The recent KMs have had extensive articles about not interrupting your partner d2d, to let them talk. No mention of not interrupting the "householder."

    Very predictable circular reasoning...but then they are not talking to a fellow jw but someone with an objective viewpoint.


    I would suggest picking a topic next time...your choice, she is there at your invitation.

    Also try this scripture rather than Acts 17:10,11 where John was talking to baptized Christians or Gal. 1:8

    (1 John 4:1) 4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

    (Galatians 1:7-9) . . .But it is not another; only there are certain ones who are causing YOU trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.

  • cultBgone

    Faithful, I too thoroughly enjoy your posts. I'm afraid your sessions are turning into jwn's own internal soap opera, however. By that I mean that many are encouraging you to continue with them, but I can't share that sentiment.

    All I see is you subjecting yourself to, and enduring, three-hour (!) sessions during which you are force-fed false doctrine. Yes, you manage to get in some great points, but you must know that every one of those points is dismissed by these two women. They don't leave and discuss what you said and allow it to change their thinking. You are just providing ammunition for them to choose a different set of jw scriptural garbage to shoot at you the next week.

    If you think about how our minds physically work... Even if we don't "believe" or "agree" with a teaching, the very fact that we listen to or read it means it is stored in our brain. The more often the same words and phrases are repeated, the stronger the neural pathways to those words and phrases become. That's why even though my children are adults now, I still remember the words to a song on the kids' tv show "Barney" because they watched it repeatedly. I don't necessarily "want" to sing that song in my head, but it's there. In the same way, most of us on this board could recite the jw-speak we were force-fed over the years but we don't want to hear it anymore. We've all had to make new thoughts to bury that trash talk and weaken those pathways. That's why the borg is so insistent that jws fill their heads daily with jw-speak and never listen to anything non-jw, as they know how our minds work and they use that knowledge to create cult-soldiers like the two women who come to your home. jws cannot think for themselves any longer...and someone might be held off baptism only because part of their brain was still actually functioning and they have to be further indoctrinated to be fully jw. Why are the jws are bent on baptizing little kids without the power to think logically? They don't have to "unlearn" anything and willingly accept what they are being told within their family. Instant jws.

    So the false teachings these women share with you do get in your head, and then you think about them to recount them here, which just implants them even further into your brain. Then you think about and strategize how to counter these teachings and that too strengthens the language in your head. And on and on and on. The jws call this "repetition for emphasis" and use it in their teaching methods, but it's really repetition for implantation. That's why jws find cult-speak so effortless and why they can barely have an original thought. That's why they are instructed to read the same material over and over and over again for years and years. That's what rises to the top of their brain to be easily accessed when they open their mouths. All the jw-speak from all the meetings and wt mags and study books just implants and implants until logical thinking becomes impossible.

    When I read your posts, it makes me think back to when I studied and how I also deferred to the jws even when the words they spoke made no sense. I was raised to be polite, and I was polite to them. I am pretty intelligent but when I asked questions about their teachings that made no sense, they backed me down by saying (in essence) that I would understand as my spiritual maturity increased. They knew my bible knowledge was minimal, and they readily took the role of teacher and made me the "kindergarten" student. And I let them. (now that's crazy!)

    The women who visit you come across with a certain boldness, confidence, and sense of superiority, and you defer to them just as I did. As you say, you allow them to ramble without interruption but that's giving them control. That's what needs to stop, truly, or this will go on for absolutely ever until you are worn down but your head is filled with jw-nonsense even if you think you're rejecting it.

    You expect them to have the same thinking about politeness and manners as you do...but really, they are quite rude to you. They are not there having an adult conversation with another adult. They come and belittle you, present themselves as spiritually superior and try to make you think that you need them. That is the cult training kicking in. If any normal person heard that they called you a kindergartener, they would be incensed by that rudeness! Yet you say, mildly, oh it doesn't bother me. It should bother you! It sums up their view of the relationship they have forged with you.

    Remember the post when you agreed to write down things they said, and several others agreed it was a great tactic? YAnd when you attempted to do that, you were asked to stop and you agreed. Why? Why do you let them have control? Why shouldn't you be able to "quote them" if they are speaking the truthâ„¢ of God? Why indeed? They come into your home and tell you what to do? That's rude, insulting, and demeaning. Don't allow it.

    You do not need these two to learn the bible as you understand it more honestly than they've been taught. You are wise to turn away from their books and their videos. I don't understand what do you hope to gain from agreeing to these sessions, that's very confusing to me. Is it an attempt to appease your family members (at what cost?) or an attempt to teach these women that they are in a cult (but they are not able to think for themselves)?

    I'm sure those three hours each week could be spent doing something that would actually bring you great tell them to go away and then go lay down some happy neural pathways instead!


  • ABibleStudent

    Faithful Witness - "So, we believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the ones teaching the TRUTH today. It sounds like you really aren't there yet," she said, as she got up to go.

    I said, "No, I am not."

    Miss W piped in with, "That's because you are still in kindergarten. It will take you awhile to get to 1st grade, then 2nd grade..."

    (I kept in mind that they were recruited during the fever of 1975 and the end of the world, as Miss W continued). "Some people take longer to come to the truth. When my husband and I started studying, it only took us 3 months, and we were ready to be baptized! But they stopped us and said, 'Wait a minute... you don't KNOW quite enough yet...' so we studied for 3 more months, and THEN we got baptized!!" She was so proud of this quick progress, I could tell. . . .

    They are so fixated on these little details and side issues, that they are missing the big picture. Next week, I will find a way to say something about how much I learn from MY kindergartener, every day. My son is a brilliant example to follow. Didn't Jesus tell us to come to him like children?

    Hi Faithful Witness, From a JW's perspective they are right and you are wrong. The elder, who was my "Bible Study" (indoctrination) conductor, once told me that I did not have the right heart/mind to understand the Bible secrets that he was trying to help me learn. If you can cause Miss K to doubt her approach in trying to indoctrinate you, may be it will open her mind a little. JWs use what Steve Hassan would call unhealthy influence to unduly influence people [see his video How Big is the Phenomenon of Undue Influence? (2:01)].

    I can think of two ways to confront Miss K about her use of unhealthy influence (e.g., changing topics and saying you are in kindergarten). May be other JWN members have additional ideas. Probably the better method is to repeat what Miss K said, ask her how she would feel if a Mormon told her what she said to convince her that she did not know what she was talking about or always changed subjects instead of answering her questions.

    The other method would probably cause Miss K to end her "Bible Study" (indoctrination) with you. When Miss K says that the problem is you (or constantly changes subjects), ask her why she is brining reproach on Jehovah? When she asks what do you mean, ask her why is she using unhealthy influence techniques to unduly influence you and then show her Steve Hassan's video How Big is the Phenomenon of Undue Influence? (2:01).

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,


  • jookbeard

    100% agreeing with CultB, cut these meets down to one more, if you feel you are going to be able to plant some seeds , do some anti witnessing then so be it, reading back on your posts the level of rudeness these two have subjected you to is really quite breathtaking, plus you let them easily control the exchanges and didnt stick to your guns, quit now , they are not worth wasting any more time on.

  • Apognophos

    What's up with the security cameras throughout the KH??... At first, it looked like they were protecting the people, but then you realize they are watching you. I had a baby I was nursing, and my husband was followed into the bathroom more than once.

    Interesting posts, thanks for taking the time to write this all up. Can I just ask what the above was about? I didn't follow this at all. I've never seen a Hall with security cameras inside. You don't mean the motion sensors for the alarm, do you? The statement about your husband being followed into the bathroom sounds strange. It might be worth mentioning that the brother assigned to do the count is supposed to include people in the bathroom at the time of his count, so he will generally look into the men's room to count feet (and try to keep track of who may have gone into the women's room).

  • Crazyguy

    Next time they come over or even before you need to tell them a topic you would like to stay on for the next study. Then pick a topic like Jesus is not your mediator only the 144k's and then blow up their truth with this topic. I so thoroughly did this with my elders that they were reduced to saying that the NT was written for only the anointed. Then I continued and showed how all that believed were in fact sons of god and anointed ones (christians). You can then end your study and any more time wasted with these ones by saying that you would rather be a christian a follower of Jesus the mediator, the high priest and the temple then being a Jehovah's witness where you have to associated with and ORG to get salvation.

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