Jesus had to die? Really?

by punkofnice 85 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kaik

    I honestly never understood how can death of Jesus as an innocent man could be a payback for the sin of the humanity. I never understand the equation. The closest model I could understand was Catholic where Jesus showed as a bridge above the bottomless pit of hell where the sinners would otherwise fall. I do not get the concept of original sin versus a death of one person who supposed to be a Son of God to save humanity and how it is fair.

    Kassad, I am not sure where in NT is written that Jesus confronted Satan. Satan tempted Jesus, but again here in Matt 4:8: "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor". Did they went to hike togehter? Did Satan kidnaped Jesus? Did Jesus agreed to go with Satan into the mountain and temple? Also it is a crucial to mention that Jews do not believe in Devil. This is much modern invention by Christians. In the OT, Satan is employed by God to gather evidence against accused one. Satan is nothing more than a modern version of prosecutor or procurator. Jesus would know it and would not accept gift of kingdoms of the world that he knew Satan did not possesses.

  • LoisLane looking for Superman
    LoisLane looking for Superman

    Nu -lite is so much fun. Thanks for this thread...

    Warning: Sarcasm ahead...

    Soooo back in the beginning of Bible made up time, God could of, should have in The Beginning, when Adam and Eve screwed up from listening to that nasty snake (which was really the perfect angel "Satan" another creation screw up), done some quality control. Obviously God's "perfect pair" were not so "perfect" after all.

    And if everything God had made was perfect, why when Adam and Eve were thrown outside the Paradise™, why were they now in a land with plants that had thorns and thistles? That does not sound very perfect to me. Sounds more like hell. So, did God intentionally create hell on earth??? Thorns, thistles, snakes, mosquitoes, poisoned mushrooms???

    Jesus, at God's right hand, must have been watching rainbows in the sky or something because he let 2 defects, slip by. Maybe, he thought, "Ooops... I guess I can bet my life on it, that Father God will make me have to pay bigtime for this mess... sometime ...


  • kassad84

    kaik - i think the gist of it is mentioned in 1 John 3:8..

  • punkofnice

    Far too much suffering for far too long. So much for a loving father.

    It is all fiction.

    Some good comments folks.

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    If god is real he's a big mean jerk.

  • Heaven

    If god is real he's a big mean jerk.

    Julia, I had this very same thought around the age of 10-12.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I am tired of threads trashing Christianity in the most disgusting terms. There is a vast difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and most other forms of Christianity. wikipedia mentions this in its paragraph on Jehovah's Witnesses. The obvious difference that strikes me is the status of Jesus. Christians believe in the Trinity. Jesus is God Incarnate, not a dinky minor angel. Armageddon is treated differently in most mainstream Christian religions.

    I became immersed in Protestantism b/c I wandered off my campus one day. Christianity does not teach what most of you suppose. Many of you confuse political/economic movements in history with religion. When I read posts here lately, the hatred of Christianity and all religions is so intense that it sounds just like the Witnesses ruthlessly attacking Roman Catholics.

    As long as we are human, religion will be mediated by humans. After my Armageddon consciousness as a little kid, I want humans to mediate it. What you describe is not what I hear from the pulpit or the pews. There is a vast difference between a fundamentalist corner storefront church and the mainstream denominations. I am fairly well read. My church experience is as far from the Witnesses as you can go.

    Christianity is not going anywhere. It has been a force for much good and for bad. I don't know a single Christian from my churches who believes in creation. The lay people are extraordinarily well read. They would want to know why I waste my time here. Furthermore, the churches were and are active in social movements. I have yet to meet a conservative Republican in church altho they could be present and decide to stay quiet. Members of the church worked tirelessly during the AIDS crisis. Gays are more than welcome. My bishop and dean were freedom riders during the Civil Rights Movement. I audited a theology course. Their were students from five to six denominations in the class. Dan Berrigan and Dietrich Bonhoffer were not stooges.

    I can understand the rage. It exists in me after four decades of normal life. I am glad I had the courage to walk in despite my fears. Believe me, I've always run out of churches. They are not cookie cutters. Christianity is no more a habitat for dingalings than atheists are. Atheistic societies have not created (wrong choice of words) good societies. Mao-the greatest slaughterer of people. Stalin. Dingalings exist everywhere.

    If you get rid of all the prophecy fulfilled garbage, I see no reason why Jesus had to do. I can only recommend The Last Temptation of Christ. The book is better but it is long. Scorcese made a film of it that was controversial. I am glad Robert DeNiro declined to play Jesus. I never believed the ransom concept. Why does God need ransoms? It sounds like a primitive leftover from blood tribal feuds. As Jung wrote in The Problem of Job, man is more moral than God, esp. the OT God.

    Oh, the Bart Ehrman book is released. I saw it in a bookstore yesterday.

  • cofty

    I can understand the rage.

    I have no rage. From a totally rational point of view I dont think Jesus was a good man and I view the gospel as a dehumanising, human blood sacrifice assuaging the wrath of a capricious deity.

  • punkofnice

    BOTR. How are you? I'm just tired full stop. I'm not up for xtian bashing but just trying to get opinions as to why the universal sovereignty® is a daft idea.

    Cofty. I found researching the existance of Jesus most beneficial.

  • snowbird

    The universal sovereignty issue per WT raises more questions than answers.

    As if the lofty Creator would deign to bargain (because that is what it is) with one of His creatures!


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