by NewYork44M 131 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
I always wonder why some of these discussions turn into such personal vitriol.
Its just open discussion on topical subjects folks, people voicing opinions on matters,
don't take comments here too seriously.
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Thats the point discussing things in a respectful manner to perhaps learn or to look at things from a different
perspective, if you cant don't here then maybe you should join another forum.
And the only thing worse than that is a self made arrogant stupid judgmental person. There are a lot of those on this forum.
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I agree - so when are you leaving? If you can't engage in a simple discussion and if you don't have the depth to even begin to try to understand where the flow of the conversation extends, and when you judge, belittle and demean others as unworthy of having any opinion - you seem to fit the image of what your profess to hate. Not everyone here is necessarily a JW - but your lack of empathy or understanding may mean that you haven't really left the organization as much as you think you have.
The only facts anyone has in this instance is what either side has publicized.
One thing is certain - you insist you aren't taking sides but it's clear, even with the facts presented that you have. The facts, as you love to talk about, didn't put Soon Yi over the age of 21 when she and her lovers wife/adopted mother/step-father/biological father to her adopted brother/adopted father to her adopted brothes and sisters - was taking nude photos of her. She was still a teenager and that's where people have a differing opinion - perhaps you see a 17 or 18 or 19 year old teenager as a consenting adult, with every right to engage in a sexual realtionship with one of the parental figures in her life. No problem - that's your right. In many States, a relationship between a step-father and step-children is considered incestuous regardless of biology until after the age of legal consent - 18-21. You might not agree - but if you had the depth to try to understand where people are coming from, you might see that for many people, what he did bordered on incest - and the link to that belief means that the swing toward him having molested his daughter isn't that wide.
Hopefully you get it now - I don't think you care - but hopefully you go away with something other than condemnation you have for others who find it difficult to separate the two behaviors - sw
bttt
I could be wrong, but I think the above post was the TKO.
Samwise, I certainly understand where folks are coming from. When this incident occurred I had most of the same feelings. He should have avoided any contact with Soon Yi. I thought that then and I think that now.. But uiltimately the facts are what they are. He certainly could be guilty of child abuse; we will likely never know. But one thing I simply don't care about is what occurs between consenting adults. That seems to be a primary issue of concern with a lot of people on this site. Separate that from all of the other stuff. What you are talking about Samwise are perceptions and feelings.
It is the ultimate in arrogance to judge, try to control, worry, fret, make laws about or whine about what consenting adults do, and that is the same whether they are the same sex, different sex or of different ages. I do not understand why so many on this forum care about what consenting adults do; the same discussions are had when the topic is the LGBT community. Allen showed deplorable character. But he is still married to Soon Yi. Let's separate our feelings, perceptions and our own moral code from the facts of the situation. I am trained to do such. I also worked diligentlly post JW to do such. I don't judge or make decisions in llife based on hysteria or knee jerk reactions or some judgment criteria that needs to go the way of the dinosaurs. Try it, Samwise, you might like it.
Viola, your comments don't deserve any response. If my 'arrogance' about the inability of so many on this site to separate thier feelings and their own personal moral code from the reailiy of life and its compleities bothers you, that is your problem. There is nothing I have stated that isn't 100 percent true. If you think please point out any errors. Other than betraying his mate, everything else he has done is simply conjecture and accusations, unsubstantiated by any facts. Whether it was the 18 year old or a 20 something Soon Yi, all of those individuals were consentingt adults. Get over it. I condemn him for his betrayal and poor judgment. Whether he did anything else wrong I do not know. And neither do any of you. The pereceptions, feelings, beliefs and judgments don't mean a thing to me. Sorry Samwise. I refuse to judge him on things just because of Soon Yi or the 18 year old he dated. It's called being fair. None of that. NONE Of that is 'proof' of anything. To use that word in relation to Soon Yi or the 18 year old he dated is pathetic, and thankfully the individuals who made the very tough decsiiosna bout this case so many years ago had the same mindset. And conveniently those feeling as you describe, Samwise, are ignoring lots of real data that doesn't support your views. VIola went off and googled a song the other day about child abuse; why can't see and the rest of you all google this story - as I have - and read both sides of it. And think rationally about the data and facts we know absent our personal beleifs or moral code????
Those are the facts Samwise. Otherwise, I am not far off from most of you in my general disdain for him. Life doesn't revolve around the judgments and prejudices of so many on this forum. Sorry. Get used to it.
And stay the eff away from the keyboard until you have done a bit of research and thought rationally and objectively and fairly about both sides of any topic to which you are about to resond. That's how i role Samwise. It is the right way to think and live. Those who rely on emotion, subjective thinking and their own tiny little world and moral code of judging others I avoid. Like the plague.
Ah, but DJS we all KNOW that anyone who dares tread a middle ground and is not seen to scream for blood and fire is a closet pedophile, a pedophile enabler or or ... worse!
Some of the sick minds here have already made those calculations and insinuated as much and if they knew where you lived would be forwarding plots of medieval retribution.
These threads have been a low point in my time here.
Since Fatfreak had the courage to post his experience, I wanted to share a false accusation leveled against me in the past.
I was at a District Convention just after my divorce from my JW wife, who had repeatedly cheated on me during our marriage. I had a number of nieces and nephews on her side of the family that I had not seen in a long time. When my oldest niece (14 years old) saw me, she ran up and gave me a big hug. It really made me feel good at the time that all of my ex's family didn't hate me.
Then the rumor mill started. A busybody elder's wife saw the hug, and started circulating on the grapevine that I was inappropriate with her. It eventually got back to me, and I was devastated.
The back story of accusations always need to be considered before weighing the validity of the claims of others. I later found out that the person that started the rumor about me had an ax to grind. Her husband (an elder that was on the fast track to becoming a CO, and working as one part-time) had been molesting my niece, and it finally came out in spite of efforts to cover it up. The wife was transferring her pain and frustration on the victim, and vicariously upon me.
Unless someone knows the entire story, it is impossible to make an accurate judgment of what happened. Mia and Woody were going through an ugly divorce, and either way Dylan was and still is a victim. Either she really was molested, or she was victimized by her mother and coached to say what she did.
BTW, I do not condone Woody later marrying his former stepchild; that is really twisted, and he is a sick pig.
zed
WMF,
Yes, I agree. Part of my frustration is that, being an ex JW, I WANT to be proud of my former brothers and sisters and hope and wish that they would have evolved past the JW mindset. That is the only reason, after nearly 20 years, that I came to this forum, to hope and try to get them to see there is a better way to think.
One last salvo and then I won't repond to this topic again. The expert, professional, esperienced team convened to look at the Allen case in conjuction with Dylan so many years ago came to the same conclusion as I. They knew about Soon Yi. They knew about the 18 year old he dated. They knew about the movies he made. They, like me, were probably parents who cared deeply about child abuse and despised it as I do. But they cared more about facts and the rational fair analysis of the data that was presented to them. They put aside any subjective, emoitonal feelings and thoughts and set aside their own personal moral code. That is what such teams should do. That is what we all should do every day of our lives. That is all we are talking about here. Ths one thing is why I don't belong on this site. TKO Viola. Now apologize.
DJs, If Violo doesn't even desreve a response why a paragraph responding to her? Also, why are you asking her to apologize? LOL
Unfortunately, Hollywood plays by their own set of rules. They often get away with murder and sometimes literally, imo. If I am allowed to have an opinion. I've worked in the field/area of child abuse for ten years now and I've seen "expert, prefessional, experienced team" make mistakes on either side.
Steve2, Finkelstein, and Sammielee: Well said.
We are all free here to share our opinions, perceptions, beliefs, facts, and whatever else we care to. If I don't like what is being said i usually move on without attacking anyone. I say usually because I did get a little carried away with the Trayvon Martin case. shame on me . . .
In my opinion, DJS has become the thing he purports to hate: The Watchtower all-male mindset. It's probably a pretty hard thing to break free from when it empowers the males within the org to such a large degree:
Taken from "shepherd the flock of god" elders-only handbook (totally not a clergy class! LOL)
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/2010-shepherd-the-flock.php
"There is no objection if an elder personally spiral binds or laminates his own textbook or does so for other elders. If he has another baptized brother who is not an elder do the work for him, the elder must watch while the work is being done. Outside companies, unbelievers, or sisters are not permitted to do this work. The material in the book is confidential, and confidentiality must be preserved."
Let's reword those restrictions to be more honest, shall we? : "Outside companies, unbaptized males and women are not permitted to do this work"
Is there such a thing as an "unbaptized brother"? And if "baptized brothers" is already covered in a preceeding sentence, who exactly are the "unbelievers", if not simply unbaptized men/boys? You could make the argument that women would also fall into the "unbeliever" category, but "sisters" is the very next no-no on the list.
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That is the Watchtower mindset.
Take note that DJS attacks are aimed at what could be perceived as female posters within this thread. He declares that what they say is "hysterical", "not based upon facts" (even when facts are cited/sourced), and all emotional-based, as if the wiminz all reached a conclusion that Woody Allen is guilty of something, esp. in regard to the age difference part.
That's why he carries on hysterically stating that perhaps he doesn't need to be here on this forum after all. Why he accuses people of making "emotional" conclusions/judgments. Why he demanded an apology (LOL!) from Viola ("Bow before Zod!"... Holy hell! hahahaha!).
Identifying with an oppressor is nothing new. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make a self-evaluation of your own.
