by EdenOne 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Captain blithering..... Check out the original greek word (though these people didnt speak Greek) and its context, overseer is a translation. But that being said, we are not saying there were not sects with elder men who led them, but there was no central organisation.
2 seconds of googling later...
'Presbureros' : an older man, senior, experienced
'Episcopos': defender, guardian
'Poimen': protector
The term "Always" is the key here.
Let's see ... in round numbers ...
Man on earth for 6,000 years.
Nothing in the Bible about any organization before the flood (about 1,500 years years from Adam to the flood)
New teaching that there was no organization after apostles until early 1900's (about 1,800 years)
1,500 + 1,800 = 3,300 years with no organization (less than 50% of the time)
And the argument could be made who was the "organization" from the flood until the time of the Moses (another 1,000 years)
Just some thoughts.
Rub a Dub
Ive always wanted to know the exact moment when the last apostle died. If they were so important,they should have taught men and women to follow in their footsteps. Besides, the NT and Christian writings suggest that the apostles did not agree. Different geographical areas have legends concerning founding by specific apostles. We focus on Paul. He was a huge apostle in the West. I've reseached wikipedia concerning very old ancient churches in India and Africa. Who knows if these legends are truth or not?
They are very weak on God's only organization. They will embrace Tyndale and then reject him. It seems as though anyone who was an apostate or heretic against the Roman Catholic Church was praise-worthy. I don't recall them embracing any particular individuals or movements.
Why does YHWH need an organization? Jesus did not have one. If you read the NT carefully, his disciples were always wondering what his point was? They certianly needed a scribe. When Jesus explains, they still don't have a clue. It has to be no accident that his apostles were fishermen, skilled working class men, and not Pharisees.
This topic about whether God has an earthly organization reminds me of the discussion between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at John 4. She said: " Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." Apparently both groups were claiming that God had an earthly organization, but Jesus was about to settle the matter. He said: “Woman, believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem." He couldn't have been clearer.
God would never again need an earthly organization, neither on Mt. Gerazim, in Jerusalem, Brooklyn, Patterson, or any other place the JWs decide to plant their headquarters. Why? Jesus succintly explains: " Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. " For emphasis, he repeats himself: " God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” Spiritual people worship a spiritual God. Fleshly people worship fleshly organizations.
In Jesus' words, "true worshippers" do not need any earthly organization telling them how to please God. Those who feel the need to worship God through organizations made up of men are not the kind of worshippers God is looking for. To teach otherwise is to go against the teachings of Christ.
There.
Settled.
Good reply Matt
Matt2414 said-
In Jesus' words, "true worshippers" do not need any earthly organization telling them how to please God. Those who feel the need to worship God through organizations made up of men are not the kind of worshippers God is looking for. To teach otherwise is to go against the teachings of Christ.
Ironic user name, Matt2414?
I just LOVE the delicious irony of some believers who want to have their cake and eat it, too, wanting to have a personal and loving relationship with their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, but also wanting to ditch the need to call anyone master, or the need to be anyone's slave....
Why ELSE did Jesus use the word "slave" a kajillion times in the NT, telling his disciples to become his slaves and serve in his name, to give up their Earthly possessions and to follow him? What where his disciples, but his voluntary (but coerced) slaves who followed his orders (Jesus had favorites who passed along his orders to the group)?
It's like modern-day Xians don't actually understand what it means to be a slave: in a nutshell, it means that you do what the MASTER orders you to do, or you get beaten (and possibly killed) by your master/owner! In the case of Jesus, that requires being a member of the body of Christ, his church. The control structure is well-documented in the OT and New, since the early Church fathers made damn-well sure to insert their "authority justification" scriptures, just like that found in the OT. Of course, Jesus' parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant is the classic example of the proof-text used to justify instituting the chain of command in the NT, with one of the servants appointed to lead the other slaves.
So how do all of you Xians who want to do your own solo act (as if you're independent contractors for Christ, and not actually his slaves) rationalize away that parable (which appears multiple times in the Gospels)?
Adam
EdenOne - In a recent meeting with Elders, an argument was used to the effect that Jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the WTS must be that organization today, since God must be using one.
Hi EdenOne, Thanks for starting this thread so that people can express how they would counter the WTBTS's false doctrine that God needs an organization. You got to love the circular logic that the WTBTS uses to stupify JWs.
I have four questions for JWs. 1) Please name the organizations that God has used in the past? How did people decide that God was working through that organization? What miracles or accurate prophesies did the organizations perform to demostrate that God was working through them? 2) How many organizations claim to represent God now? What miracles or accurate prophesies have they performed to demonstrate that God works through them? 3) How do people know when God no longer works through an organization? Does God send Jesus Christ to fire the leaders of the organization like he did with the Pharisees and Sadducces? 4) Does God really need an organization, since Jesus Christ said that after his ressurection, God would send the Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ's disciples? In Acts God also sent the Holy Spirit to a Roman legionnaire.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
Marked
If one reads Acts you'll notice it the holyspirit that directs Paul and not a organization. You'll also notice that Paul disagreed with the jewish christians about abserving the law and he also disagrees with james reguarding the subject of 'works'. They all agreed and disagreed and it didnt end with one or another being burned at a stake like the JW's would do to thier members if they could.
Adamah: I had forgotten that my screen name is matt2414. lol. A few years ago when I was a JW, I had to come up with a screen name and password for my work computer that had letters and numbers. I have a hard time memorizing random letters and numbers so using a Bible name and verse that I had burned into my brain made it easy. I've almost forgotten what it says at Matt. 24:14. Almost.
