"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  blondie

  Jehovah does not need an organization, nor has he used an organization for most of human history. For 2,500 years, from creation until the Israelites, there is no mention of any organization. God dealt directly with individuals. From the death of the Apostles until the formation of the Watchtower Society in the 1800's, what group represented God's organisation?

  Bible history proves that this is not the case. For the majority of history God has not used any organization. He predominantly has operated through individuals, and has regularly dealt with more than one group at a time.

  Originally God dealt directly with Adam and Eve. He continued to deal directly with Abel, and also directly with the unrighteous man Cain. (Gen 4:15) For the next 2000 years there is no mention of any organization or intervention by God, except for when God deal with two individuals; Enoch and Noah.

  After the flood, Jehovah continued to deal with individuals rather than with an organization. He concurrently dealt separately with individuals such as Lot and Abraham.

  *** jv chap. 15 p. 205 Development of the Organization Structure ***

  However, Brother Russell emphasized that they were not attempting to set up an “earthly organization.”
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  EdenOne

  That's a line of reasoning I've used, Tim.

  Unfortunately they make a fairly reasonable point that the christian congregation and ancient priesthood and kingship of Israel are forms of organization, so, while the term isn't in the Bible, the concept is. I may disagree, but it's a fair point.

  Eden
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  Laika

  Israel was a nation, not an Organisation!
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  EdenOne

  That's a more accurate notion, Blondie. God may use an organization, but he doesn't need one. And even when he uses one, he can operate outside that organization, not exclusively through it.

  Laika: Any nation is a form of organized society, therefore, an organization of sorts.

  Eden
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  tornapart

  I usually say that God dealt primarily with individuals. As for Israel, it wasn't an 'organisation', it was a Nation. They rejected God as king (1 Sam 8:7) and things went from bad to worse. 'Organisation' wasn't a good thing, it was a bad thing in God's eyes. He had the Assyrians and Babylonians destroy it when it got too bad and then later Jesus condemned it. I've tried this tack with my hubby and he hasn't got a thing to say against it.
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  EdenOne

  That's actually a good point. If Israel was an "organization", how that experience turned out for God?

  Eden
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  Captain Blithering

  I had this come up the other day, ive been formulating replies on paper, this thread is brilliant, thanks for starting it!
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  Vidqun

  When they say that God has always had an organization, they are lying. There were times that he only worked through individuals (e.g., from Adam and Eve to Moses), as has been brought out. Even according to their own belief system, they admit that Jehovah used individuals to preserve the Scriptures from the time of Jesus onwards. After the leaders of the Catholic Church went apostate, what organization did God use? However, in the magazines you often read of God using individuals since that time that championed the truth of God's Word (e.g., Wycliffe, Tyndale, etc.)
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  Doug Mason

  Because Paul expected the "Coming" to occur almost immediately, he never wrote about structure or organisation. However, towards the end of the first century, people were trying to manage the situation and hence they wrote letters such as what are known as the Pastoral Epistles (for obvious reasons) - Timothy and Titus being prime examples. In these letters, fraudently stated as having been written by Paul, the anonymous writers set out instructions for positions within the hierarchy - Bishops, Elders, and such. Whereas Paul wrote that since the Parousia was imminent, it would be better if people did not marry, at the end of the century, decades after Paul's death, the Pastoral Epistle says that the Leader had to have a wife. Paul wrote that men and women were equal before God but a mysoginist organiser writing at the end of the first century contradicted Paul.

  In the second century (about 180 CE), one of the problems confronting the early Church were people who said they were receiving communications directly from God - they did not need the Church hierarchy. These opponents of the descendants of Paul ("proto-orthodox") included people such as Marcion and Montanus. They posed an enormous problem for the Bishops and other Church leaders. Indeed, the Marcionites outnumbered these proto-orthodox. This threat to the Bishops started the move to decide which writings would be considered as sacred Scripture. In this way, they could resolve problems by referencing these documents. Naturally, the writings the Bishops chose were those writings that could be used to support them. Imagine what Christianity would look like if Paul's (genuine) writings were removed, along with those of his supporters.

  After a few more centuries passed, this structured Church, authorised by the Roman Emperors, achieved an almost universal acceptance of their writings as the New Testament.

  The writings of their opponents, including those of the Jerusalem Church described in Acts, are lost.

  Wherever you look at the Christian Church through history and today, you will see structure, management, control. The decisions made by that early Christian sect and its Roman spopnsors shaped the destiny of Western Europe.

  Doug
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  Laika

  Ok Eden, God chose Israel with the intention that they would live out his law and by doing so reveal God and become a blessing to all the other nations. As a nation they failed at this, but Jesus as an Israelite fulfilled God's promises and himself became the blessing to all the nations.

  Jehovah chose Israel for this task in order to fulfil the promises he'd made to Abraham.

  What promises did Jehovah make to the Watchtower Organisation? What blessings are they bringing that have not already been fulfilled in Jesus?